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Video Titled: Hallelujah in Hell
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Some thoughts on Total Forgiveness of Sins
Struggling with forgiveness of sins is a universal religious disease that needs to be cured. It is why we feel agitated at times. It is why we cry out, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” It is why we struggle with forgiving others. It is why we are easily angered. It is why we do not enjoy the fruits of the Spirit. It is why we are critical and judgmental of ourselves and others. It is why prayer and bible reading seems to be a chore and why church can be an absolute bore.
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this IS that toucheth him: for she IS a sinner.
I live out of the new identity of who I am in Christ Jesus. I do not live with a sin consciousness. I behold myself as righteous and holy and not sinful and disgusting. I view myself as one who "doeth righteousness" (by faith/not law), and not one who needs to focus on making myself more righteous in the sight of God (Law/religion). I do not beat myself up over sin but rather lift myself up rejoicing due to His victory over sin and my death to sin. I am buried and I prefer keeping my old self there. I put off the old man and his deeds by putting on the new man that is renewed not by efforts to behave but rather, "renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him" (Col. 3:10).
***I decided to add a section explaining briefly my opinion of good works. I know some will assume that my being against religious behavioral modification that I must have a low opinion of good works. I know some will assume that since I say that we are perpetually forgiven and not to be sin conscious that I am saying that sinning no longer matters. Truth is, I am all for good works and advocate it. I am against the sins of the flesh as well.
Paul told us in Titus 3:8 that we ought to be careful to maintain good works. The focus upon the good works is upon others and not getting closer to God nonsense or proving I belong to Him. Paul said that they are good and profitable unto men. James said the same thing. He was talking about the poor man in chapter 2 and said that if one claims to have faith but has not works then what will faith profit the poor man. Can faith save/deliver/help the poor man? The answer would be no when you simply tell the poor man to be filled, clothed, and blessed but you do not give him what he/she needs. See my blog on James 2:14.
What confuses people is that they see verses that say, "Be ye perfect as I am perfect" and assume behavioral modification. We must remember that the Galatians sought to be made perfect after the flesh and were rebuked by Paul.
When people see that I am against religious behavioral modification then they think that I am OK with a life of sin. No I am not! The Corinthians were mindful of the flesh and the Galatians were after the flesh as well but both were two different extremes.
I am convinced that our behavior and the things we do is based on a mindset we have. If you are a shy person then it is because of a mindset you have. If you are a jerk then it is because of a mindset. Some have a mindset that everyone is against them and that affects how they live. If you are doing works or anything to feel saved, loved, or forgiven then it is because of a mindset. The mindset is leading you to do things that never will work as I tried revealing in this blog.
I am simply against trying to make myself something I already am in Christ. It always results in frustration and defeat. My renewing my mind after the image of Him affects how I see life. My mindset leads me to enjoy things that I did not enjoy while very religious. There are things I enjoy that my religion said were no-nos. I also do things and enjoy things now that I tried so hard to do and enjoy before when religious but failed.
My mindset has freed me from fear and it was my former fearful mindset that produced certain external works but it did not flow from a changed heart. I was as a deaf person dancing to music that I was unable to hear. I could not hear the beat of grace.
Paul spoke of the law of love. Love is what tells you to not cheat on your spouse. Love is what tells you to not steal from your neighbor. Love is what tells you to not murder. You cannot experience this love when your mindset is fleshly. I think we all know how in religion we would fake happiness and love to one another because we thought we had to "do" it as that is a fleshly mindset. It is beholding the unconditional love of God that changes the religious mindset into a mindset of love. It is beholding the love of Christ that compels us. If you are focused upon behavioral modification or trying to be like God because you feel so inferior and guilty then your mindset will be that of the first Adam. Your mindset will have you hiding from God and sowing on fig leaves (self-righteousness).
Condemnation is a mindset that causes people to do things they normally would not do if enjoying no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
Those who suffer from a guilty mindset tend to suffer from physical problems (migraines, insomnia, and so on).
Certain mindsets cause people to withdraw from others. Certain mindsets cause people to be critical and judgmental.
Believing God is angry will lead you to "do" things that flow from a fleshly mindset. You will not be a happy person but you will "do" things that are only you sowing to your flesh and the fruits you reap are corruption.
You might be praying, passing out tracts, going to church, and reading your bible due to a fleshly mindset. You probably find such things to be a chore.
There is a real danger here because people will be expecting certain changes. They think, "If I am really believing that I am forgiven then I will not be doing such things." The fact that they say, "I will NOT be DOING such things" reveals a fleshly mindset. They are condemning themselves before they even give themselves a chance to grow. Growth often begins just with the mind thinking in a new manner.
We can all do good works unto men. We can mirror our thinking to who we truly are in Christ. However, we cannot mirror our behavior to the person we truly are in Christ. We are not to be sin conscious. Such things are exactly what results in us feeling guilty and alienated from God. When we put demands upon ourselves to prove we must be saved or to somehow feel better about ourselves before God then everything goes south.
Knowing my sins are forgiven affects my mindset. Knowing that I am loved affects my mindset. Knowing that I am accepted affects my mindset. The changes I experience might not be yours and yours not mine. The first fruits I started to experience was a calmer Dave. People commented on it. The next fruit I can remember is having a love for others. Certain sins I had before still lingered on. I did not seek to do battle because the harder I fought the stronger that sin became. I simply lived life loved and the mindset began changing me from within. Enjoy your inner changes and over time it will begin to affect the outward. It might be something as simple as not being so easily angry. It might be you being a better dad/mom/husband/wife.
I am for good works. I am against gratifying whatever my sinful passions desire as I am not thinking about my sins. Does that mean anger never gets the best of me? Of course not, but even if anger gets the best of me or anything else is when it never affects my knowing who I truly am in Christ. I know I am forgiven, loved, accepted, the praise of His glory, righteous, and as Jesus is, so am I in this world!
Religion is all about conforming. We are not to conform to the world as religion is of the world. Religion calls the grace teaching a "doctrine of devils" but if you read the context then you will see that those who teach a "doctrine of devils" are those who "forbid" you from things that hardly is a picture of pure grace we teach. Religion are those who teach the "commandments of men." Their "touch not, taste not, handle not" might appear to have a form of wisdom but it truly is a powerless religion that produces nothing but clean looking empty shells.
We are not to be conformed but "transformed" by the renewing of our "minds" and not behavioral modification. Paul tells us in 2nd Corinthians 3:18 that we are "transformed" into the same image and that does not come from conforming behavior but beholding our identity/true reflection in the face of Jesus Christ. As He is, so are we in this world. We are to put off the old man and his labels (lies) and put on the new man (reality/true identity) that is renewed after the "image" of Him!!
I have done a 4-part blog on confession of sins and why we do not confess sins today so I will not repeat it here. I do believe the religious invented judicial versus parental forgiveness hinders the full enjoyment of sins forgiven and I speak from past personal experience.
Would you agree with a child who says, “I must be good to be loved”? Does that child need to be good to be loved? Would you not feel sorry for a child who is trying hard to be loved, forgiven, and accepted by his/her parents? This describes much of Christianity when it comes to a loving heavenly Father. People are on an endless struggle to be loved, forgiven, and accepted by Him. They say with their lips, “I am forgiven” but their heart is crying out.
You agreed that a child does not need to be good to be loved. Now does it make sense to say that in order to enjoy forgiveness is to refrain from sinning? How do I enjoy forgiveness of sins if I do not sin? I raised this question in my previous blog on October 18th:
How can you enjoy forgiveness of sins if you are busy trying not to sin to enjoy forgiveness of sins?
If you are trying not to sin to enjoy forgiveness then you cannot and will not enjoy forgiveness every time you sin. You will think that God is not pleased with you. You might even question whether God has forgiven you when you keep repeating the same sin. You will see forgiveness as only conditional and that is how religion presents forgiveness. I have seen so many people defeated because they cannot accept that God would forgive a repeat offender. They certainly cannot accept that they are already forgiven before they even sin. It should be no wonder why they do not enjoy forgiveness.
Instead of being sin conscious is to be forgiven conscious. Am I saying to be forgiven conscious even when you sin? Yes, even when you sin.
What is sin? It is missing the mark. How do we sin? By trying to be like God through efforts, religion, and anything else you impose upon yourself. This is why I am against the religious teaching of Standing and State of the believer. This teaching states that you are positionally righteous but you need to make your state (daily behavior) match/mirror your standing or position in Christ. This is no different from Adam from trying to be like God. This religious teaching is for you to see how short you come of God’s perfection and for you to do whatever it takes to make your behavior somehow mirror God’s perfection. This ONLY breeds failure and frustration. No wonder so many keep going forward in altar calls to rededicate their lives, “God, I vow not to do that sin again. I vow to refrain from this and that. I promise I will be more faithful” and such vows are broken in days or weeks.
We are not to be like Adam and assume that we can do something that will make us more like God. Cease from the religious efforts and behold instead, “As Christ is, so are ye in the world.” You are perfected forever. You have been made holy once for all. You are complete in Christ. You are forgiven and loved. You are accepted in the Beloved and never rejected. He will never leave you or forsake you. You can forsake Him but He remains faithful to you because that is what love will do.
Make your thoughts mirror your reality and get the eyes off the behavior. Viewing behavior will make you feel disqualified even though He qualified us in Him. There is no darkness as the light now shines. The only alienation one experiences is in his/her own mind (Colossians 1:19-21; Ephesians 4:17-18). Darkness is only the lies you choose to believe. The light speaks only truth concerning you. It reveals what God believes about you. You are the son or daughter He always wanted. You are cherished by the Father. His arms of love and grace embrace you right now regardless if you believe that.
Here is a good short video about the man-made standing/state of the believer or what is known as progressive sanctification:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz6fu2TO2y4&feature=youtu.be
I am not against behavioral change but never to get closer to God or to be more like Him as that is impossible. I am as near to God as Jesus Christ and not one bit of righteousness or sin will change that one iota. No wonder so many feel distant and alienated from God because they are too busy self-analyzing how they are not like the Almighty. They keep trying to be more like Him that only breeds the sense of distance. Their prayers are, "Oh God, I failed you again. I sinned again. I done this again. I did not demonstrate you in my behavior. I am so sinful and rotten." Such only appeals to a self-righteous heart. It opens the door to misery.
Do you recall the first time you trusted Christ? Did you initially experience a great joy from believing your sins were all forgiven? What if it is possible to experience that same joy daily? It is available to you. The reason you are not enjoying it is because your mindset is fleshly. Fleshly mindset is a person who is law/religious/sin oriented. It would be you believing that God is still angry and holds sin against you. If you are not 100% assured you are forgiven right now then you serve a “god” who still imputes sin and there is no getting around that.
How many times have you prayed, “God, reveal to me my secret faults. Do I have any unknown sins that need confessing”? No wonder you struggle. No wonder forgiveness is anything but precious to you. Your mindset is OT Law. Your mindset is that of Adam/death. You are sin oriented and it is killing you.
Forgiveness can only be enjoyed by someone who sins. Forgiveness is not something a self-righteous person enjoys as they are the ones who will read this and despise what I am saying because they feel it takes advantage of God’s grace. If grace cannot be abused by those who are foolish enough to be grace abusers then it was never grace.
There are three types of people:
Person A: One who enjoys forgiveness but sins.
Person B: One who strives hard to not sin to enjoy forgiveness.
Person C: One who is forgiven but does not know that they are forgiven.
Tell me, which one of the above is self-righteous? Do not kid yourself because you instantly knew which person would be considered self-righteous out of the above 3. Are you self-righteous? If you are doing anything to enjoy and experience forgiveness right now then you are fleshly. You are seeking to sow on fig leaves to cover your “shame” versus those of us who can stand naked before God without the shame.
Were the men who nailed Jesus to the cross enjoying their forgiveness? No. Let us be clear that Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” Do you believe God honored that prayer? Religious people do not live conscious that they are forgiven. Everything they attempt to do in order to enjoy forgiveness robs them of instant joy. They merely arouse the same feelings any other religion experiences when they confess or do extreme things to feel and enjoy forgiveness. The feelings/assurance never last in a religious person. There is also a question mark in the back of that persons mind whether God has truly forgiven them entirely.
We read how Jesus went to His death with forgiveness on His lips, “Forgive them for they know not what they do” but supposedly He came forth victoriously from the grave with an unforgiving chip on His shoulder. Instead of freely forgiving sinners like He did hanging on the cross is for people to somehow earn or do things to get it. People will object to being freely forgiven because they always add the word “but” to forgiveness. As one pastor said, when a person says “but” will be when do-do comes out of that but (but you must do this and that to be forgiven/remain forgiven).
I said this in my blog on October 18th:
I do not commit sins to purposely enjoy forgiveness of sins and I do not quit sins to enjoy the forgiveness of sins.
I simply am not thinking about sins. I am not thinking how short I come from the mark of perfection in my performance because as Christ is so am I.
I know the religious mind twists and perverts truth so let me clarify what I just said. I said that forgiveness is enjoyed by the one who sins. I did not say that one is to sin to enjoy forgiveness. I walk in the light of that truth. I am a child of light perpetually (Ephesians 5:8). Knowing that I am perpetually light in the Lord gives me that assurance that my sins are forgiven. I do not live sin conscious. I do not live with the view, “OK, what wrongs can I do today?” I live life conscious of my true reality/identity in Christ and do not allow religion or things of this world to remove me from that reality. If you doubt your forgiveness then you doubt your identity/reality you have in Christ. You are still trying to be like God as did Adam.
Those who misunderstood Paul would have said, “Shall we sin that grace might abound?” I do not want to be accused, “So shall we sin that forgiveness might be enjoyed?” The answer is “no” because we have died to sin. We do not rejoice in sins committed but in sins forgiven. We are not to be sin conscious (Hebrews 10:2) that religion who butchers 1st John 1:9 knows nothing about. The sacrifices of the OT covered sin but never removed them. However, there was a yearly reminder about sins in the OT, but those who twist 1stJohn 1:9 make it a daily reminder under the new covenant where God somehow remembers and imputes child sins but never judicial sins that is just unscriptural. Please see my blog: Do you have a seared conscience?
1st Corinthians 13:5 tells us that love keeps no record of wrongs. Question, is God’s love perfect? Is God’s love beyond measure? When you sin is God keeping record of your wrongs? Does He keep parental records of wrong (whatever that is)? Why then do you doubt you are forgiven even while sinning? Remember, you only come up short (sin) when you try to be like God. Get your eyes off of the religious performance roller coaster.
Let me ask you this: Can anything separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus? If nothing can separate you from the love of God then can we not be sure that such love that keeps no records of wrong will always embrace us? Can we be sure that no sin can separate us from that love because that love keeps no records of wrong? If sin can separate you from His love then He lied to us concerning the true definition of love. Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!
Maybe you keep records of those who wronged you and it could be why you question whether God would forgive you. Many people tend to vision God through their own set of beliefs. If the person is reluctant to forgive then they assume God must be reluctant to forgive as well.
I believe we needed to see the death of Christ to believe our sins are forgiven. Sacrificing animals or humans are not uncommon in places that never heard of Christianity or the Bible. It is in man that believes some god out there must be angry and requires blood. God did not put His Son on Calvary but we did. We like to say that God exhausted His wrath on Jesus Christ at Calvary (no verse teaches that) but the only anger demonstrated was our hatred for Him. God did not rip the beard from His face. God did not punch Him in the face. God did not whip Him. God did not spit upon Him. God was never said to be in humanity doing such things to Him. 2ndCorinthians 5:19 said that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. It never said that God left Jesus at any time as only religion never bothered to fully read Psalm 22 where it shows that He was not left alone. God never turned His back on Jesus.
I do believe the shed blood was vitally important as I do not deny that but I want you to consider something for a moment. Religion says that Jesus paid our sin debt in full. If Jesus paid our sin debt in full then how are we forgiven? If a debt has been fully paid then what left is there to forgive?
If you were going to be evicted from your property for not paying your mortgage but someone came along and paid the bank what you owed then would you claim the bank had forgiven you? No! Imagine you owed me a large sum of money but your friend came and paid me what you owed. Would it make sense for me to call you up and say, “Do not worry about that money you owe me because I have forgiven your debt”? No as that would be a lie.
You can read about Jesus freely forgiving people apart from any sacrifice throughout the gospels. Religion claims that Jesus was looking ahead to what He was going to do and was able to forgive on account of that, but that is how one reads into the bible words nowhere taught.
Luke 7 reads:
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
He “frankly forgave them both”? So He did not have to beat one of His other servants to be paid back? No, He frankly forgave them both.
Jesus before Calvary stated to His disciples 'forgive to be forgiven' but Paul after Calvary said to 'forgive because you ALREADY have been forgiven.' Paul told us to freely forgive as we have been forgiven in Christ. Are we freely forgiven then in Christ???
Now if we are to demonstrate the same forgiveness that religion claims God did then should we not beat the tar out of someone first before we forgive others? Why does God get payment but we are told to simply forgive our debtors? Is that not God being, “Do as I say and not as I do”? If God is going to shake violently the money out of another man’s pants to get paid back then so should we. I hope you can see that God freely forgives and not had to beat the tar out of Jesus to forgive you. It is in God’s nature to forgive.
The above is just few of the reasons why the Penal Substitutionary death has some serious holes in it. I do not believe the penal substitutionary death theory.
It was God who imputed sin to man and it was God who no longer imputes sin to man (see 2nd Corinthians 5:19). If God is not imputing sin to your account (love keeps no record of wrong), and if God remembers our sins no more according to Hebrews 10:17 then why would you doubt forgiveness even while sinning? Are you still trying to be like God? Trying to be like God will make you doubt you are forgiven. Are you living life through the eyes of the first Adam or are you enjoying forgiveness and life through the eyes of the second Adam?
The only way we do not enjoy forgiveness of sins is when our identity is based upon what we see in ourselves (fleshly focus). If you behold your sins and believe God is angry then do not expect to enjoy forgiveness. Those who try to quit their sins to enjoy forgiveness are those seeking to sow on fig leaves to cover their shame. The shame is gone. You can come out of hiding/darkness. There is no angry God. There is no God scolding you. Stop seeing imperfection when God only sees perfection. Let the world despise you and your grace beliefs but know that you are loved and cherished by God Himself. He never despises you even when you feel you are at your ultimate sinful low in life.
There are people who think that if God opens their eyes to see how sinful they are then they will love and appreciate Him more. I used to be one of those people. I knew that the one forgiven much will love much, so I desperately wanted to see how utterly sinful I was so that I could love much. Did it work? NO!!! It made me feel worse.
Love much is only to the degree you see forgiveness. Most believers live with a “Did God forgive me? I feel guilty. Is there unconfessed sin in my life? Is God hiding His face from me?” Such are those who love little because they feel forgiven of little. When you get those erroneous thoughts out of your head then you will love much because you will behold that you are forgiven much. Those who enjoy forgiveness are those who sin and not those who try not to sin. It is you walking in that light of truth that you enjoy forgiveness of sins.
It is not that I walk conscious of sin but rather walk conscious always that I am forgiven. It is not where I say, "Oops! I just did that sin again but I am forgiven!" It is rather I behold my forgiveness without eyes beholding my sins. I do not view how I come up short (sin) as religious people do. I get my mind out of the sinful mindset gutter. If I become conscious of any sin then I simply rejoice in forgiveness that is mine that nothing can take it away. Nothing shall separate me from that love that keeps no records of wrong. God is NOT imputing sin to us. It is only religious people who imputes sin and not God.
Really quick, religion teaches that when you sin that God hides His face from you and will quote OT pre-cross Psalm 66:18 to prove it. Do you know that the Pharisees refused to believe a blind man who was born a sinner could be given sight by God? They quoted, “We know that God heareth not sinners.” Were they right? Not at all. Be careful of the things religion is dishing out to you. If your religion says that God gives you the silent treatment and takes away assurance/joy when you sin are liars. Such people love to mix the old with the new.
Religion is against any sinner enjoying the forgiveness of sins while sinning but look now at Luke 7 again:
38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this IS that toucheth him: for she IS a sinner.
The harlot was forgiven but still seen as a harlot. How can you be a harlot forgiven? She was still a harlot but religion will not accept that. They want us to believe that the harlot might have believed she was forgiven but after believing she would have to quit being a harlot to stay forgiven or prove she was forgiven. This is the error of religion. The harlot (not former harlot) was weeping and washing the feet of Jesus knowing she was forgiven and Jesus affirmed that. Only religion rejects sinners. Are you a friend to sinners or those who stop sinning? Think about that question.
Below was copied and pasted from my October 18th blog:
If you are not free then do not think that you are embracing the true gospel. Do not be the person I once was by thinking it will only get better. Do not think getting rid of that one sin will make it better. Do not think understanding more theology will make it all better. Do not think that a little more clarity on your gospel will make it all come together, as it just might be "your gospel” making you miserable.
The wrong gospel is never the power of God unto salvation as it simply does not work. The gospel speaks directly to the mind while the devil (Law/Religion) blinds/veils the mind and speaks to the flesh. If your gospel is presented as a formula then remember that it is not true milk.
Question any gospel that has "points" that have to be in a specific order. Question any gospel that preaches bad news. Question any gospel that preaches alienation and separation that God removed (see 2nd Corinthians 5:19; Colossians 1:20-21). Question any gospel makes you worry if you did not do something right. Question any gospel that makes you worry if you did not do something enough. Question any gospel that produces anxiety. Question any gospel that makes you sin conscious. Question any gospel that limits what God can do until you do something first. Question any gospel that makes the first Adam more powerful than the second Adam. Question any gospel that uses fear to get you to respond. Question any gospel that will backdoor works into it. Question any gospel that makes you doubt God based on your future works or sins. Question any gospel that makes any law declarations in it. Question any gospel that tells you things you must start doing.
The true gospel will bring out the real you. The real you will stop trying to hide from God every time you believe you screw up. The real you will no longer be thinking He is ticked off with you. The real you is based on God's faith and not yours. We believe His faith concerning us. What God believes about you (not religion) is what the heart rests in.
Stop thinking the real gospel will make you stop sinning or sin less because that alters ones perception of the glorious 'gospel of grace' and perverts it into the 'gospel of conforming' that is no gospel. I wish believers would learn the lesson that God is not answering the prayer, "God, take away this pet sin of mine." How many times have you prayed about that certain sin(s) you struggled with now for a long time that has yet to go away? How many more prayers before you will learn that it will not be answered? The only reason you keep praying for God to take it away is because you think God is worried and upset about it. You think God is irritated with you. You think God has some anger in Him against your faults. You think God still imputes sin because you keep repeating that one sin. You think there is a certain amount of unhappiness in God's heart toward you. You think God's love and forgiveness is conditional. You think God has to be at least a little disappointed with you. You are believing lies!
Those who are worried and fighting against their sins are always those who do not enjoy forgiveness of sins. Fighting sins is not how one enjoys forgiveness of sins. Fighting sins is how one will perpetually question whether God has forgiven them. It will make you aware of your failure that was the purpose of the Law. I rather fight against a sin consciousness than some sin that clearly I am unable to beat. Fighting against those repeated sins only gives strength to such sins. Fighting against sins will make you aware of how weak your flesh truly is and that is no way to live.
Feeling that my sins reveal my shortcomings before God will NEVER allow for 'forgiveness of sins' to be enjoyed. It is "forgiveness of sins" and not "forgiveness of not sinning." It is enjoying sins forgiven and not sins refrained. How can you enjoy forgiveness of sins if you are too busy trying not to sin to enjoy forgiveness of sins?
Forgiveness of sins are enjoyed by those who sin and not the self-righteous. Only religious people will read into what I just said and will say, "So shall we sin to enjoy forgiveness of sins?" Forgiveness of sins is what we enjoy and never some erroneous fixation upon sins to enjoy. I am not enjoying sins committed but sins forgiven. I do not commit sins to purposely enjoy forgiveness of sins and I do not quit sins to enjoy the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins are enjoyed by those who sin so do not read more into that statement than I gave.
Where sin abounds is to behold the grace that super abounds. Grace will always exceed all sin ever committed. This does not mean that we turn fleshly and think about doing sins to allow grace to demonstrate its beauty. It is for us to not be sin conscious (we have died to sin) and to live in the glorious reality that grace super abounds in all areas of our life always. Remember, grace is greater than our sins but never forget that grace is even greater than us as well.
You do not come up short today. Religion loves to quote Romans 3:23 that tells us that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God that was before Calvary but fails to read what happened as the result of Calvary in verse 24. We were "justified freely by His grace." Freely means, "without a cause/reason." Do not live your life feeling "shorted" because you have all things in Christ Jesus.
Those who are forgiven much are said to love much, and never those who sin less love more. A sin less attitude makes one conscious of failure and Law. I never get out of bed thinking, "How can I sin less today?" because that will lead to an exhausting day made up of failure. I do not dwell on my sins as I have died to it. I do not allow sin to reign as king. There is a reason why we are to have our hearts sprinkled clean from an "evil conscience" (sin conscience; guilty conscience). An evil conscience does not enjoy forgiveness of sins as everything to an evil conscience is impure.
Religion would have you live life with the OT mentality, "Woe is me." Religion would have you live in remorse over your sins of omission and that of commission. Living in remorse does not breed love but rather a sense of distance and alienation from the one who so loved you. Those who struggle to believe they are forgiven tend to be easily angered and appears to be quite often. They tend to be critical of others and even love to argue. It seems that the more one doubts forgiveness the more critical they are of others. Those struggling with forgiveness are easily irritated. They often quote all the verses on forgiveness of sins to arouse some nice brief feelings but that is never the route where one enjoys the forgiveness of sins perpetually.
How do you experience "forgiven much/love much"? By focusing on the very person you are right now while beholding "no condemnation" over a single thing you do or not do. It is you saying, "Wow! What a screw up I am and God loves me and accepts me as I am and not with some demand to clean myself up." Our response should be, "Wow! God has forgiven someone like me!" and not, "How can God forgive someone like me?" The moment we say, "Oh no! I just did that sin again" is when the mind experiences condemnation and feelings that God is angry and hiding His face from us. This is what causes people to question forgiveness rather than enjoy forgiveness because their "god" is, "Clean up your act or else."
I personally do not view myself as a screw up but was using that as an example. I merely view the obvious contradiction of how I see myself through the eyes of the flesh/law and who I truly am in Christ Jesus. Looking at myself through the eyes of the Law is when I see myself as a train wreck but looking at myself through the eyes of Jesus Christ is when I see righteousness and true holiness. I see a person free of blemish and spot. I see one accepted and loved. I see one who is the praise of His glory.
A fleshly mindset will see flaws but a spiritual mindset sees "perfected forever." I do not mix the fleshly mindset with the spiritual mindset that religion attempts to do because my years of experience taught me that religion only knows death rather than life and peace in the Spirit. This is not the progressive sanctification nonsense, "Make your behavior match your position in Christ" that never works. It is mirroring my mind to that true reality I have in Christ.
People often fight against sins because they fear punishment. Why are you in such a heated battle with your sins? Is it because you think someone is angry or might retaliate for your sins? Ask yourself if it is because you fear consequences from God. Religion says that they fight against their sins because they love God and do not want to do things that are not pleasing in His sight. That sounds so good but it is not what honest Christians experience deep down. You are only aware of constant failure to "please" God who is already pleased with you! You will only question the sincerity of your love every time you fail. Live out of the reality that you are well-pleasing 24/7 regardless of what you do or not do and see how that affects your life.
Those who are worried and fighting against their sins are always those who do not enjoy forgiveness of sins. Fighting sins is not how one enjoys forgiveness of sins. Fighting sins is how one will perpetually question whether God has forgiven them. It will make you aware of your failure that was the purpose of the Law. I rather fight against a sin consciousness than some sin that clearly I am unable to beat. Fighting against those repeated sins only gives strength to such sins. Fighting against sins will make you aware of how weak your flesh truly is and that is no way to live.
Feeling that my sins reveal my shortcomings before God will NEVER allow for 'forgiveness of sins' to be enjoyed. It is "forgiveness of sins" and not "forgiveness of not sinning." It is enjoying sins forgiven and not sins refrained. How can you enjoy forgiveness of sins if you are too busy trying not to sin to enjoy forgiveness of sins?
Forgiveness of sins are enjoyed by those who sin and not the self-righteous. Only religious people will read into what I just said and will say, "So shall we sin to enjoy forgiveness of sins?" Forgiveness of sins is what we enjoy and never some erroneous fixation upon sins to enjoy. I am not enjoying sins committed but sins forgiven. I do not commit sins to purposely enjoy forgiveness of sins and I do not quit sins to enjoy the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins are enjoyed by those who sin so do not read more into that statement than I gave.
Where sin abounds is to behold the grace that super abounds. Grace will always exceed all sin ever committed. This does not mean that we turn fleshly and think about doing sins to allow grace to demonstrate its beauty. It is for us to not be sin conscious (we have died to sin) and to live in the glorious reality that grace super abounds in all areas of our life always. Remember, grace is greater than our sins but never forget that grace is even greater than us as well.
You do not come up short today. Religion loves to quote Romans 3:23 that tells us that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God that was before Calvary but fails to read what happened as the result of Calvary in verse 24. We were "justified freely by His grace." Freely means, "without a cause/reason." Do not live your life feeling "shorted" because you have all things in Christ Jesus.
Those who are forgiven much are said to love much, and never those who sin less love more. A sin less attitude makes one conscious of failure and Law. I never get out of bed thinking, "How can I sin less today?" because that will lead to an exhausting day made up of failure. I do not dwell on my sins as I have died to it. I do not allow sin to reign as king. There is a reason why we are to have our hearts sprinkled clean from an "evil conscience" (sin conscience; guilty conscience). An evil conscience does not enjoy forgiveness of sins as everything to an evil conscience is impure.
Religion would have you live life with the OT mentality, "Woe is me." Religion would have you live in remorse over your sins of omission and that of commission. Living in remorse does not breed love but rather a sense of distance and alienation from the one who so loved you. Those who struggle to believe they are forgiven tend to be easily angered and appears to be quite often. They tend to be critical of others and even love to argue. It seems that the more one doubts forgiveness the more critical they are of others. Those struggling with forgiveness are easily irritated. They often quote all the verses on forgiveness of sins to arouse some nice brief feelings but that is never the route where one enjoys the forgiveness of sins perpetually.
How do you experience "forgiven much/love much"? By focusing on the very person you are right now while beholding "no condemnation" over a single thing you do or not do. It is you saying, "Wow! What a screw up I am and God loves me and accepts me as I am and not with some demand to clean myself up." Our response should be, "Wow! God has forgiven someone like me!" and not, "How can God forgive someone like me?" The moment we say, "Oh no! I just did that sin again" is when the mind experiences condemnation and feelings that God is angry and hiding His face from us. This is what causes people to question forgiveness rather than enjoy forgiveness because their "god" is, "Clean up your act or else."
I personally do not view myself as a screw up but was using that as an example. I merely view the obvious contradiction of how I see myself through the eyes of the flesh/law and who I truly am in Christ Jesus. Looking at myself through the eyes of the Law is when I see myself as a train wreck but looking at myself through the eyes of Jesus Christ is when I see righteousness and true holiness. I see a person free of blemish and spot. I see one accepted and loved. I see one who is the praise of His glory.
A fleshly mindset will see flaws but a spiritual mindset sees "perfected forever." I do not mix the fleshly mindset with the spiritual mindset that religion attempts to do because my years of experience taught me that religion only knows death rather than life and peace in the Spirit. This is not the progressive sanctification nonsense, "Make your behavior match your position in Christ" that never works. It is mirroring my mind to that true reality I have in Christ.
People often fight against sins because they fear punishment. Why are you in such a heated battle with your sins? Is it because you think someone is angry or might retaliate for your sins? Ask yourself if it is because you fear consequences from God. Religion says that they fight against their sins because they love God and do not want to do things that are not pleasing in His sight. That sounds so good but it is not what honest Christians experience deep down. You are only aware of constant failure to "please" God who is already pleased with you! You will only question the sincerity of your love every time you fail. Live out of the reality that you are well-pleasing 24/7 regardless of what you do or not do and see how that affects your life.
The gospel is you ALREADY accepted even with that pet sin. You do not lose the pet sin to be accepted and you do not lose the pet sin to stay accepted. The Law revealed that none is righteous so what will all the inconsistent efforts to do legal righteousness do for the gospel? Also, what will it do for you? Will legal righteousness make you more righteous in the sight of God? Will sin make you less righteous in the sight of God? Will legal righteousness make you more forgiven than you already are? Will it make you more accepted in the Beloved than you already are? Will it make you better in the eyes of God? Will it make God bless you? Did you find your insane efforts made life better for you? Are you happier? Did those insane efforts make God's love and forgiveness seem so incredibly real to you? Get rid of the religion!
The gospel did not come along with magical powers to make you behave righteously. You will find that the sins you committed before believing the gospel are still there after you believe the gospel. All of your attempts to fight those sins away only kept them around all of these years. Give up the battle! I said, "Give up the battle!" and not "Give in to your sins" as there is a difference, since "both" (battle/give in to sin) are a fleshly mindset.
Giving up the battle is knowing that sin is dead and defeated. Giving up the battle is knowing that all of those sins you are conscious of are forgiven and forgotten. Giving up the battle is you knowing that those sins will not and cannot make you any less accepted than you already are. This is how we can get our minds out of the fleshly gutter of sin consciousness. If you are sin conscious then you believe that God is sin conscious too. If sin can cause you to doubt who you are in Christ then you fail the test of faith that is more precious than gold and silver. Never doubt your true identity based on anything you do or feel.
I cannot describe the joy of living my life without worrying about my sins. I am being myself and no longer faking it. I am not wearing the mask of religion anymore. I threw away the fig leaves and now live naked before God without the shame. I do not have to put on a holier than thou performance. I do not have to do the daily bible studies to feel better. I do not have to listen to Christian music all day to try to keep myself in some godly frame of mind with nice feelings to accompany it.
I live in my new identity that NOTHING can affect. The life I live is CHRIST who lives in me as the old me is dead and buried. As Christ is, so am I in this world. My mindset is not upon the flesh. It is not upon the fleshly mindset of, “What sins can I do today?” that is not the mind of Christ. It is also not upon the other fleshly mindset of, “God, I vow not to do this sin today but will be as obedient as possible to every Law commanded” as that is not the mind of Christ for us. I live out of the new identity of who I am in Christ Jesus. I do not live with a sin consciousness. I behold myself as righteous and holy and not sinful and disgusting. I view myself as one who "doeth righteousness" (by faith/not law), and not one who needs to focus on making myself more righteous in the sight of God (Law/religion). I do not beat myself up over sin but rather lift myself up rejoicing due to His victory over sin and my death to sin. I am buried and I prefer keeping my old self there. I put off the old man and his deeds by putting on the new man that is renewed not by efforts to behave but rather, "renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him" (Col. 3:10).
***I decided to add a section explaining briefly my opinion of good works. I know some will assume that my being against religious behavioral modification that I must have a low opinion of good works. I know some will assume that since I say that we are perpetually forgiven and not to be sin conscious that I am saying that sinning no longer matters. Truth is, I am all for good works and advocate it. I am against the sins of the flesh as well.
Paul told us in Titus 3:8 that we ought to be careful to maintain good works. The focus upon the good works is upon others and not getting closer to God nonsense or proving I belong to Him. Paul said that they are good and profitable unto men. James said the same thing. He was talking about the poor man in chapter 2 and said that if one claims to have faith but has not works then what will faith profit the poor man. Can faith save/deliver/help the poor man? The answer would be no when you simply tell the poor man to be filled, clothed, and blessed but you do not give him what he/she needs. See my blog on James 2:14.
What confuses people is that they see verses that say, "Be ye perfect as I am perfect" and assume behavioral modification. We must remember that the Galatians sought to be made perfect after the flesh and were rebuked by Paul.
When people see that I am against religious behavioral modification then they think that I am OK with a life of sin. No I am not! The Corinthians were mindful of the flesh and the Galatians were after the flesh as well but both were two different extremes.
I am convinced that our behavior and the things we do is based on a mindset we have. If you are a shy person then it is because of a mindset you have. If you are a jerk then it is because of a mindset. Some have a mindset that everyone is against them and that affects how they live. If you are doing works or anything to feel saved, loved, or forgiven then it is because of a mindset. The mindset is leading you to do things that never will work as I tried revealing in this blog.
I am simply against trying to make myself something I already am in Christ. It always results in frustration and defeat. My renewing my mind after the image of Him affects how I see life. My mindset leads me to enjoy things that I did not enjoy while very religious. There are things I enjoy that my religion said were no-nos. I also do things and enjoy things now that I tried so hard to do and enjoy before when religious but failed.
My mindset has freed me from fear and it was my former fearful mindset that produced certain external works but it did not flow from a changed heart. I was as a deaf person dancing to music that I was unable to hear. I could not hear the beat of grace.
Paul spoke of the law of love. Love is what tells you to not cheat on your spouse. Love is what tells you to not steal from your neighbor. Love is what tells you to not murder. You cannot experience this love when your mindset is fleshly. I think we all know how in religion we would fake happiness and love to one another because we thought we had to "do" it as that is a fleshly mindset. It is beholding the unconditional love of God that changes the religious mindset into a mindset of love. It is beholding the love of Christ that compels us. If you are focused upon behavioral modification or trying to be like God because you feel so inferior and guilty then your mindset will be that of the first Adam. Your mindset will have you hiding from God and sowing on fig leaves (self-righteousness).
Condemnation is a mindset that causes people to do things they normally would not do if enjoying no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
Those who suffer from a guilty mindset tend to suffer from physical problems (migraines, insomnia, and so on).
Certain mindsets cause people to withdraw from others. Certain mindsets cause people to be critical and judgmental.
Believing God is angry will lead you to "do" things that flow from a fleshly mindset. You will not be a happy person but you will "do" things that are only you sowing to your flesh and the fruits you reap are corruption.
You might be praying, passing out tracts, going to church, and reading your bible due to a fleshly mindset. You probably find such things to be a chore.
There is a real danger here because people will be expecting certain changes. They think, "If I am really believing that I am forgiven then I will not be doing such things." The fact that they say, "I will NOT be DOING such things" reveals a fleshly mindset. They are condemning themselves before they even give themselves a chance to grow. Growth often begins just with the mind thinking in a new manner.
We can all do good works unto men. We can mirror our thinking to who we truly are in Christ. However, we cannot mirror our behavior to the person we truly are in Christ. We are not to be sin conscious. Such things are exactly what results in us feeling guilty and alienated from God. When we put demands upon ourselves to prove we must be saved or to somehow feel better about ourselves before God then everything goes south.
Knowing my sins are forgiven affects my mindset. Knowing that I am loved affects my mindset. Knowing that I am accepted affects my mindset. The changes I experience might not be yours and yours not mine. The first fruits I started to experience was a calmer Dave. People commented on it. The next fruit I can remember is having a love for others. Certain sins I had before still lingered on. I did not seek to do battle because the harder I fought the stronger that sin became. I simply lived life loved and the mindset began changing me from within. Enjoy your inner changes and over time it will begin to affect the outward. It might be something as simple as not being so easily angry. It might be you being a better dad/mom/husband/wife.
I am for good works. I am against gratifying whatever my sinful passions desire as I am not thinking about my sins. Does that mean anger never gets the best of me? Of course not, but even if anger gets the best of me or anything else is when it never affects my knowing who I truly am in Christ. I know I am forgiven, loved, accepted, the praise of His glory, righteous, and as Jesus is, so am I in this world!
Religion is all about conforming. We are not to conform to the world as religion is of the world. Religion calls the grace teaching a "doctrine of devils" but if you read the context then you will see that those who teach a "doctrine of devils" are those who "forbid" you from things that hardly is a picture of pure grace we teach. Religion are those who teach the "commandments of men." Their "touch not, taste not, handle not" might appear to have a form of wisdom but it truly is a powerless religion that produces nothing but clean looking empty shells.
We are not to be conformed but "transformed" by the renewing of our "minds" and not behavioral modification. Paul tells us in 2nd Corinthians 3:18 that we are "transformed" into the same image and that does not come from conforming behavior but beholding our identity/true reflection in the face of Jesus Christ. As He is, so are we in this world. We are to put off the old man and his labels (lies) and put on the new man (reality/true identity) that is renewed after the "image" of Him!!
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Some thoughts on 2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9; Gehenna; Matthew 25:46
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
How about 1st Samuel 10:19 that reads:
One thing that I have learned is that those who talk about hell the loudest are those who lack compassion, patience, kindness, assurance, and love. Hotter the hell the angrier the person. Read the Youtube comments on hell and try finding the love and compassion. Then be sure to read the experiences of those who came to see the love of God and the "hell-less" (no hellfire forever) view and how they were transformed. Not transformed into, "Excellent! What sin can I do today?" but rather, "I have a heart full of love and compassion for people unlike I ever had before." Read how happy they had become. This is what religion seems to fear.
Matthew 25:46:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and THEY all shall haveone shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever (age).
11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.
12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
Hellfire? How would the Gentiles back then understood the above verses as talking about an after death experience in fiery torment when their apostle never once taught, preached, or warned of hell?
Many believers today act as though the converts of Paul walked around with a pocket New Testament with the words of Christ in red. These Gentile believers did not walk around with any of the synoptic gospels. How would Gentiles read 2nd Thessalonians and even assume Paul was talking about an after death experience inside of a chapter that made no mention of an after death experience? How would they even come up with hellfire torment in an afterlife? Instead of trying to read answers into the passage is to simply read the passage itself and notice that it does not teach the religious nonsense we hear in churches today.
2nd Thessalonians is seen as being the ONLY verse where Paul supposedly preached hell in the afterlife, but again, how would the Gentiles know that Paul was talking about an after death experience in a place he never talked about before?
Look at the context:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
Who are the “you” and “them” being addressed? South Africa? New Zealand? United States? Great Britain? The verses were not even addressing you. Quit reading “you” into verses not addressing you. The Thessalonians are clearly not being troubled today. The only ones who trouble us today are religious people. Persecution comes from religious people. Tell the religious community that you believe in pure grace and see what happens. Tell religious people that you do not believe in the religious hellfire forever and see what happens. Tell sinning people that they are forgiven and watch the religious hell break loose.
There is NOTHING in 2nd Thessalonians 1 about an after death“destruction from the presence of the Lord.” This destruction is upon planet earth and not some never ending destruction that one feels and experiences forever. The KJV translated aionion as “everlasting” as though destruction can somehow keep going. Destruction was never said to be an after death experience but something in their lifetime. I prefer the Young’s Literal Bible:
9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength
It was the “you” Thessalonians being troubled, and it was the “them” Thessalonians being addressed. I do not picture 2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 as being the man/lady telling me to take my gospel and shove it as a way to comfort myself saying, “Wow! God will get them for that one.” I heard one pastor on TV who talked about someone he was sharing his "version" of the gospel to and said to that person, "Go to hell and see if I care" (exact words). That's the problem, you will discover a lack of "care" in how they talk about others even though they claim to care the most.
Now religion takes the words “from the presence of the Lord” (verse 9) and will say that it means in hell. Really? This comes from a shallow and careless view of scripture. If “from the presence of the Lord” means hellfire or even annihilationism then what shall we do with every other verses that uses the EXACT same phrase?
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LordGod amongst the trees of the garden.
Adam and Eve sent themselves to hellfire? They annihilated themselves in Genesis 3? Remember, religion claims that away from the presence of the Lord would have to be in hell because God's presence is in heaven, so where do you see hellfire in Genesis 3?
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Cain sent himself to hellfire? Cain annihilated himself in Genesis 4?
12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.
7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Religion tells us that this so-called spirit being called Satan has free access into heaven and they use Job 1:12 and 2:7 as supposed proof. The “presence of the Lord” was only here on planet earth and not some outer dimension. Every time the words “from the presence of the Lord” was used was here on planet earth and never a reference to heaven. The previous verse states that this Satan was going to and fro on planet earth but religion says that Satan “presenting himself before the Lord” (2:1) meant that he went to heaven to have a chit-chat with God. Look at 2:6:
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
The sons of God went to present themselves and the accuser joined them. Does presenting themselves before the Lord mean that they went to heaven? If yes, then what do we do with Joshua 24:1 that reads:
And Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God.
How about 1st Samuel 10:19 that reads:
19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the Lordby your tribes, and by your thousands.
I doubt anyone reading those verses view it as going to heaven. I’ve learned to question anything religion has to say.
Let's continue looking at the words, "from the presence of the Lord" to see that it referred only to here on planet earth:
3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord.
10 Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him. Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the Lord, because he had told them.
Jonah sent himself to hellfire? Jonah annihilated himself in chapter 1? Jonah ran out of heaven into hellfire?
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
After death experience? Hellfire? Annihilationism? Going to heaven in Acts 3? No, the times of refreshing was on planet earth to the living.
Now look again at 2nd Thessalonians 1:9 and tell me how “from the presence of the Lord” now means an after death experience in hellfire or annihilationism:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
Do you see how contradictory religion can be? The "from the presence of the Lord" never meant in hell away from God who is in heaven.
Religion tries to argue it this way, “Heaven is the presence of the Lord and hell is away from the presence of the Lord” and nobody questions religion on that nonsense. I could quote the verse in Psalm 139, "If I make my bed in hell behold thou art there" and that does not sound like an absence from the presence of the Lord in hell if I were to play the same word game that religion does.
The next time religion tells you that hell is "away from the presence of the Lord" then quote their other so-called hell proof text in Revelation 14:10 and ask them, "Then why does the verse in Revelation 14:10 say it is in the presence of the Lord"? Watch them invent an answer that does not come from the context or in scripture period.
Religion tries to argue it this way, “Heaven is the presence of the Lord and hell is away from the presence of the Lord” and nobody questions religion on that nonsense. I could quote the verse in Psalm 139, "If I make my bed in hell behold thou art there" and that does not sound like an absence from the presence of the Lord in hell if I were to play the same word game that religion does.
Do you honestly believe "from the presence of the Lord" is in hell where God is supposedly absent? If so, please explain your other so-called hell proof text in Revelation 14:10:
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb
If hell is away from the presence of the Lord then what do we do with the above verse that you claim is hellfire that clearly is "in the presence of the Lamb/angels"? I already talked in a previous blog about Revelation 14:10 and the redeeming Lamb. It was upon planet earth and not an after death experience. Such people would have no rest day or night. Remember, religion says that there is no day or night in hell so then where do you have day and night? It is called earth. Nobody is said to be dying here. It is figurative language that religion tries to make literal. Try finding anyone dying in the context of Revelation 14 and then being sent to this so-called torture chamber. Religion is insane.
If hell is away from the presence of the Lord then what do we do with the above verse that you claim is hellfire that clearly is "in the presence of the Lamb/angels"? I already talked in a previous blog about Revelation 14:10 and the redeeming Lamb. It was upon planet earth and not an after death experience. Such people would have no rest day or night. Remember, religion says that there is no day or night in hell so then where do you have day and night? It is called earth. Nobody is said to be dying here. It is figurative language that religion tries to make literal. Try finding anyone dying in the context of Revelation 14 and then being sent to this so-called torture chamber. Religion is insane.
The next time religion tells you that hell is "away from the presence of the Lord" then quote their other so-called hell proof text in Revelation 14:10 and ask them, "Then why does the verse in Revelation 14:10 say it is in the presence of the Lord"? Watch them invent an answer that does not come from the context or in scripture period.
Not too many religious people are willing to question religion. This is why ‘free thinkers’ are condemned. This is why I do not care for manipulative guilt and fear loving religion. From the presence of the Lord never implied an after death experience. It was a reference to here on planet earth.
Reread the above verses again and see it for yourself. 2ndThessalonians 1 was not talking about an after death destruction from the presence of the Lord as you better reread it. If you still will claim it is hell in the afterlife then only you are inserting words into the context that are not there. Only you will have to twist the phrase, "from the presence of the Lord" to suit your brand of religion and that is deceitful.
Reread the above verses again and see it for yourself. 2ndThessalonians 1 was not talking about an after death destruction from the presence of the Lord as you better reread it. If you still will claim it is hell in the afterlife then only you are inserting words into the context that are not there. Only you will have to twist the phrase, "from the presence of the Lord" to suit your brand of religion and that is deceitful.
There is no after death talk for unbelievers in 2ndThessalonians 1:9. There is no hellfire in the afterlife taught in 2nd Thessalonians 1:9. From the presence of the Lord is not banishment from heaven where one is consigned to hellfire in some outer dimension in 2nd Thessalonians 1:9. All the nonsense we hear from religion is read back into 2ndThessalonians 1:9.
Paul was assuring the Thessalonians to hang in there as it would not be that much longer. Paul was not saying, “Do not worry. Death is coming and you will be in the presence of the Lord in heaven and those who are doing terrible things to you will be forever punished in hellfire from the presence of the Lord.”
Do you honestly believe that recompense for troubling others is never ending torment in a literal fire? The verse does not teach that. These trouble makers would be recompensed and not forever being recompensed as that is not justice but cruel. It was only that the oppression would cease. From the presence of the Lord was never an after death experience. We are dealing with those troubling the Thessalonians and not hearing a sermon in how God will kill and fry every unbeliever upon this planet.
Do you honestly believe that recompense for troubling others is never ending torment in a literal fire? The verse does not teach that. These trouble makers would be recompensed and not forever being recompensed as that is not justice but cruel. It was only that the oppression would cease. From the presence of the Lord was never an after death experience. We are dealing with those troubling the Thessalonians and not hearing a sermon in how God will kill and fry every unbeliever upon this planet.
Do you believe that God recompensing tribulation is reserved for them after they die and that we somehow should take comfort in that thought? Does it bring comfort to you to somehow think that those who persecute you will be fried forever? Are you that infantile that you would say, "Good! That's what they get for calling me names"? Only a cold and calloused “god” can produced cold and calloused people. Are you cold and calloused? Maybe it is time to send your god to that hell.
One thing that I have learned is that those who talk about hell the loudest are those who lack compassion, patience, kindness, assurance, and love. Hotter the hell the angrier the person. Read the Youtube comments on hell and try finding the love and compassion. Then be sure to read the experiences of those who came to see the love of God and the "hell-less" (no hellfire forever) view and how they were transformed. Not transformed into, "Excellent! What sin can I do today?" but rather, "I have a heart full of love and compassion for people unlike I ever had before." Read how happy they had become. This is what religion seems to fear.
A mindset full of hell is a heart empty of love. Just watch hellish videos. Watch how some lie about hell claiming it is in the sun, center of the earth, in a volcano. Listen to them lie that a microphone placed at the ocean floor heard the screams of those in hell. Watch the near death experiences that are never consistent with each other where some have claimed demons having homosexual sex with people but these people have the nerve to claim that their "god" is love???
Watch the comments hellfire believers leave. Read their comments on those who were homosexuals and have died and see if you can find love and compassion. Read their comments on the recent suicide of Robin Williams. Look for their compassion and love and you will notice the absence of Jesus Christ. You will see how a mindset full of hell is a heart empty of love. Watch how they react when you disagree with them and notice their so-called concern for your eternity is replaced by name calling and harsh words. No wonder they hate the God of unconditional love because that pours cold water on their hell.
It never fails that the hotter the one makes hell the angrier that person tends to be. Hotter the hell the less compassion and love you actually will find. They claim their screaming about hell is their compassion to reach and wake up others, so can we only guess the apostle Paul lacked compassion because he never once screamed such a message?
Do you honestly believe God recompenses people who do not like you and persecutes you with never ending pain and punishment? Are you longing for the day that such people will be forever punished in flames? If you said yes then you are a stranger to grace and do not know Him. Consider the religious "god" and his so-called love and ask yourself, "Can I love better than Him? Is his love beyond comprehension?" Be honest!
Gehenna:
Who goes to Gehenna? Answer that question really quick to yourself. Who do you say will go to Gehenna? Religion says those who reject the gospel of grace go to this Gehenna (hell). It is interesting to note that every verse where Gehenna was quoted was never stated as the fate of those who do not believe the death, burial, and resurrection gospel. NOT ONCE!!! No verse says, "If you do not believe then you go to hell when you die."
People think the word “perish” refers to an after death experience. Religion takes the word “perish” and will read that word as though one is forever in a state of perishing in flames of Gehenna but somehow you are preserved from actual perishing. I guess you can perish without actually perishing??? Just take the time to look up the word “perish” in a Strong’s Concordance to rule that religious foolishness out. Perish often means death and not a death where one does not die. I do not agree with annihilationism but they are the best at exposing/refuting this religious nonsense that "perish" means living on in some hellfire forever.
Look up the word Gehenna in a Strong’s Concordance and notice carefully that one is never said to go to this place for rejecting the gospel of grace. Gehenna was for the one who said, “Thou fool” as being in danger of it (Matthew 5:22) but that was not referring to an after death experience. It was not "thou fool" and later when you die is to go to Gehenna for such words, but rather the living could be cast into this Gehenna or dead bodies. Gehenna was only spoken to the living and never a warning to those who have died. No dead person was threatened with resurrection into Gehenna.
One is to cut off the members of the body that offend to not be cast “whole BODY” (physical death or perishing) in Gehenna (Matthew 5:29-30) that was not an after death experience. What does religion do? They claim that you remove anything (cut that limb or precious sin off) that hinders you from believing the gospel. That is simply a desperate attempt to read their religion into a passage that does not preach their religion. There was no death, burial, and resurrection gospel in Matthew 5.
I fail to find Gehenna once used as a warning for rejecting the death, burial, and resurrection gospel. I fail to find the Gentiles warned once of this Gehenna. I only find this Gehenna to be speaking to the land of the living (geographically limited too) and never an after death experience. Nobody is raised to go to Gehenna. Body and soul were said to be cast into Gehenna. Soul was defined as the “breath of life” that gave life to the body. This is a complete physical destruction and not some spiritual frying dimension awaiting people.
This Gehenna was specifically addressing works and never a failure to believe the gospel of grace, so why does religion preach Gehenna as an after death fate to those who do not believe? If you are going to claim that Gehenna is reserved for those who rejected the death, burial, and resurrection gospel then show me one verse??? All you can do is tie verses from all over the place and read your religion back into them. I might as well teach suicide by saying, “Judas went out and hung himself, and Jesus said to go and do likewise, and what you do, do quickly, and my peace I leave with you.”
Gehenna never referred to an after death experience. Look up the word “fire” in the synoptic gospels and you will find that it too never referred to an after death experience. It was always talked about on planet earth and not what the dead made conscious in some spiritual dimension would experience. You will find that religion will read their assumptions into verses that use the word “fire.” The ONLY verse religion quotes that directly deals with a “conscious” man in flames is Luke 16 but I have addressed that in my blog titled THE LAKE OF FIRE!!!
Matthew 25:46:
Religion loves to quote Matthew 25:31-46 as proof for their after death hell. OK, where is the death, burial, and resurrection gospel in Matthew 25? Where was the gospel at all in Matthew 25? Can you find the gospel your church proclaims in gospel tracts stated in Matthew 25? Where was the death, burial, and resurrection gospel proclaimed anywhere in the book of Matthew? The passage was not a rejection of the gospel but dealt with how a people were treated. The context comes just before religions isolated proof text that gives a big clue as to what was going on here:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
I fail to see the rejection of the gospel. Religion ALWAYS has to read words/ideas into a passage that was NOWHERE taught or stated in order to blind the minds of the people. The passage was dealing with the judgment of the LIVING NATIONS and not the judgment of the dead people of all who ever lived.
Religion is quick to quote verse 33 as believers versus unbelievers:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Gentiles were NEVER called sheep once. Religion seeks to twist the verse in John 10 about “other sheep” as somehow being Gentiles. Gentiles were never called sheep once, as the “other sheep” spoke of the gathering together of the “two sticks” (two houses of Israel that were divided) as talked about in the OT. Look at Ezekiel 37:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and THEY all shall haveone shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Israel divided and was to be joined back together as one. Isaiah 8:14 reads:
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
The two houses of Israel were the House of Judah and the House of Joseph. Jesus saying “other sheep I have” was not a reference to bringing in the Gentiles as the Jews would not have understood Him to imply that at all. Jesus came for the lost “sheep” of the HOUSE of Israel (Matthew 15:24) and the above verses were about the "house of Israel" (see Ezekiel 37:16 that says "house of Israel" again). Gentiles were never called sheep (look it up).
In Matthew 25, we have the “sheep” on the right and the “goats” on the left. According to religion, the sheep are those who have believed the death, burial, and resurrection gospel but the “goats” on the left are those who have rejected the gospel of grace inside a book (Matthew) that did not preach the death, burial, resurrection gospel once. Jesus did not start preaching His death until His final year in ministry that many fail to realize. This is why the disciples did not understand what Jesus was talking about and even Peter rebuked Jesus for saying that He would die.
The context defines who the sheep/goats are in verse 32:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
The nations (of the living) are gathered and not John Smith who died in 1867 for not believing the gospel.
Some argue the word “nations” is often used to refer to Gentiles and that is true. I think it is clear that we are dealing with all nations and not all Gentiles in the above verse. The chapter leading up to this verse uses the Greek word “ethnos” to speak of nations, as chapter 24:7, 9 reads:
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nationsfor my name's sake.
Matthew 25 deals with the judgment of these nations. We are dealing with the land of the living and not dead people raised for the judgment of nations. We are on planet earth here in Matthew 25 and not some after death experience. This is not a resurrection of the dead as religion reads way too much into this chapter.
If you read Matthew 25 as literal then you will have some serious problems explaining the “cup of cold water, visiting prisons, sick, needing clothes” as literal as well. Does your religion teach that you go to hell for not visiting those in prison? If you say that "visiting people in prison" is not literal then why should I believe verse 46 is literal banishment in some place called hell in some afterlife when it never says that? Religion is notorious for such shoddy handling of the bible they claim to love.
The cup of cold water, visiting those in prison, and caring for the sick is a description of someone clearly in need. We are addressing the judgment of nations and there was a nation in need of help that we will discuss shortly.
If you read Matthew 25 as literal then you will have some serious problems explaining the “cup of cold water, visiting prisons, sick, needing clothes” as literal as well. Does your religion teach that you go to hell for not visiting those in prison? If you say that "visiting people in prison" is not literal then why should I believe verse 46 is literal banishment in some place called hell in some afterlife when it never says that? Religion is notorious for such shoddy handling of the bible they claim to love.
The cup of cold water, visiting those in prison, and caring for the sick is a description of someone clearly in need. We are addressing the judgment of nations and there was a nation in need of help that we will discuss shortly.
What we have is a figurative gathering of nations and it is the nations on the left who experience the age-during punishment while those on the right experience the age-during life. I know your KJV says, “everlasting” but if it is everlasting then where is this punishment or life being experienced? This is why you have to make aionios (translated erroneously as everlasting) to mean that you die and then go on to this punishment/life when it never said that. One enters age-during life and the other age-during punishment but where do you see it as outside the realm of life? Where do you see people floating off to heaven and others off to hell? Where do you see it describing everyone who had ever lived? The ones who go to aionios punishment are the nations in the context and not Fred Johnson who told pastor John Doe that he was not interested in the death, burial, and resurrection gospel tract. The nations are those in the context.
Where are those "nations" in the context today experiencing this punishment? Only religion gives you that destination as they see it meaning some other place than earth (heaven/hell) even though we never departed from planet earth in Matthew 25 once. The passage never stated anywhere that the punishment or the life is in the afterlife in some other dimension at all. Your religion added words to the verse nowhere stated. The passage never states this punishment outside the realms of life or this planet. It simply is the nations gathered will depart (go), as they are separated from the sheep. To say, "One day they will die and go to hellfire forever" is reading words into the passage.
Where are those "nations" in the context today experiencing this punishment? Only religion gives you that destination as they see it meaning some other place than earth (heaven/hell) even though we never departed from planet earth in Matthew 25 once. The passage never stated anywhere that the punishment or the life is in the afterlife in some other dimension at all. Your religion added words to the verse nowhere stated. The passage never states this punishment outside the realms of life or this planet. It simply is the nations gathered will depart (go), as they are separated from the sheep. To say, "One day they will die and go to hellfire forever" is reading words into the passage.
Where do you see an after death experience in Matthew 25? Where is heaven in the afterlife even mentioned once? You were taught the religious gospel of two choices (heaven or hell). You were made to see words in Matthew 25 that simply are not there. Nobody here is dying and going to some awful place. Nobody here is said to be dying and going to some wonderful place either. We are not talking about John Smith who rejected the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection one day dying and waking up spiritually in flames of agony forever nonsense. We are simply talking about one having age-during life. A quality of life.
Age-during life is said to be knowing Him (John 17:3). Age-during life is not immortality. This “eternal (age-during) life” speaks to the quality and “immortality” speaks to the quantity. Romans 2:7 speaks of "eternal life" (age-during) and "immortality" inside of the same verse. We do not put on "aionios life" but we do put immortality. Eternal (age-during) is a gift that was to be enjoyed but immortality is the result of what Jesus accomplished at Calvary and His resurrection on the behalf of all. In Adam all die but in Christ (the same) all shall be made alive.
Age-during life is said to be knowing Him (John 17:3). Age-during life is not immortality. This “eternal (age-during) life” speaks to the quality and “immortality” speaks to the quantity. Romans 2:7 speaks of "eternal life" (age-during) and "immortality" inside of the same verse. We do not put on "aionios life" but we do put immortality. Eternal (age-during) is a gift that was to be enjoyed but immortality is the result of what Jesus accomplished at Calvary and His resurrection on the behalf of all. In Adam all die but in Christ (the same) all shall be made alive.
If you are going to be honest with Matthew 25:46 then you will have to admit that those who go into “everlasting (age-during) punishment” are those who did not give a cold cup of water and so on. Religion simply tries to get around the obvious. Some will tell you that if your faith is genuine then it will be seen in works as the supposed reason for verses 42-44 that again was not a passage dealing with believing the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection but rather the treatment of a nation (sheep) that we will soon see.
Some do see the context of Matthew 25 as a lack of mercy being extended to others as a reason for God torturing them forever. So are we to assume that God’s mercy is conditioned upon our mercy? We are to assume that God's mercy will fail those who fail to demonstrate mercy? God's mercy and love is only conditioned upon you demonstrating it to others? God’s mercy and love fails?
Some do see the context of Matthew 25 as a lack of mercy being extended to others as a reason for God torturing them forever. So are we to assume that God’s mercy is conditioned upon our mercy? We are to assume that God's mercy will fail those who fail to demonstrate mercy? God's mercy and love is only conditioned upon you demonstrating it to others? God’s mercy and love fails?
These people forever cannot be corrected of what they have done but now and forever have to experience a merciless “god” in a place absent of his love and mercy for their temporary display of mercilessness? How does hell demonstrate love and mercy? If God is love then how is a hell created by God without loving and merciful hands? Good luck twisting that one with your Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde god of religion!
We are talking in Matthew 25 about nations “back then” and their treatment of Israel. Again, it is NATIONS we are talking about. We are dealing with how one treated Israel back then. The treatment of Israel can even be seen in Obadiah 1 and read these verses entirely:
11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.
12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.
15 For the day of the Lordis near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lordhath spoken it.
Obadiah is talking about those who did not stand with Israel. How they rejoiced at Judah and her destruction. How they spoke proudly of her distress as they have become as a stranger to her. Mathew 24 speaks of a coming destruction that I believe happened in 70ad and then Matthew 25 speaks of Jesus as a stranger and those (nations) who refused to give Him a cold cup of water, visit Him when He was in prison, did not give Him clothes that were needed, and did nothing for Him when He was sick. Again, this speaks of those nations that stood against Israel back then and they did nothing for her when she needed their help the most.
This is what Matthew 25 was specifically addressing at the end of the chapter. The goats were those who stood against them (Israel) and offered no help. How is this even you today??? Religion does not care about those verses but rather verse 46 that they twist to scare hell into people. Religion always quotes verse 46 to people and never the immediate context, why do you think? Sorry, verse 46 does not fit with your rejecting gospel and frying for it as taught by religion. It was dealing with the nations that stood against Israel as was in Obadiah.
After reading those verses in Obadiah, would you read that passage as an after death experience or judgment of nations? Are you going to read Matthew 25 as an after death experience or as the judgment of nations?
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'(Matthew 25:46 Young’s Literal Bible).
Ask yourself, who are the “these” being addressed in verse 46? Are the “these” referring to all of those who ever existed from the beginning of time? No, we are speaking of nations during a specific time in the context. Are nations going to hellfire and others are going to heaven? I think that is a silly question.
Ask yourself, who are the “these” being addressed in verse 46? Are they those who have rejected the death, burial, and resurrection gospel? The answer is no, but many teach the verse as referring to those who rejected the gospel. They see the verse as saying that the goats that rejected the gospel of grace go to hell and those sheep who have believed go to heaven. This is man-made nonsense called religion.
You will find Matthew 25:46 in the statement of faith found at most online church websites as proof of hell for those who reject "their" version of the gospel. It is found in almost every hell believing church website even though it was not preaching an after death hell. The context does not argue what they claim and yet they use that verse as some supposed after death experience for rejecting "their" gospel.
The age-during kolasis (punishment) would be seen in a form of chastening because “these” nations are punished for their treatment of Israel and never some rejection of the death, burial, and resurrection gospel. You can hold on to your hellfire forever in the afterlife and continue to argue words nowhere stated in Matthew 25 but I prefer remaining true to the context rather than religion.
We are so accustomed to hearing about an angry God who throws most people into some forever burning torture pit as such people cannot see Matthew 25:46 any other way.
The Greek word for “punishment” is Kolasis. Strong’s defines that word as:
correction, punishment, penalty
Why is it so hard to picture the correction of nations in Matthew 25? Why is it that we thrive on such horrific punishment that supposedly never can end? Why is it so hard to see figurative language or even figurative punishment? Does punishment always bring up physical pain in your mind? Could not the nations be deprived of something as a punishment? Does the religious "god" only deal in pain and disease in your thinking?
Also, why is it that religious people get so upset when you attack their precious hell? Why is it so hard for the religious mind to see Isaiah 26:9 as a possible reason for kolasis (correction/punishment):
Also, why is it that religious people get so upset when you attack their precious hell? Why is it so hard for the religious mind to see Isaiah 26:9 as a possible reason for kolasis (correction/punishment):
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth,the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
What does hellfire forever of burning agony accomplish? How is that correction when nothing ever gets corrected? It is nothing more than teaching a sick twisted “god” who needs therapy and medication. Religion says that God “must” send people to this fire forever because He is just but no verse says that. I think it is rather what the religious heart desires, and seeing how "angry" they get when you pour cold water on their hell is proof. It is what religion calls justice and their god is nothing more than an invented golden calf.
Pure unending agony inside a flame is just? Set yourself on fire and tell me how billions of years of that is just. Just torch your index finger thoroughly and say, “Praise God for such wonderful justice as that!” Listen to what it is you are saying. We can and do demonstrate more love and compassion than the religious god. Atheists demonstrate a love far greater than the religious god and many of those who profess to be believers.
I had a discussion with a man at work this week on hell. I simply wanted to know if he could turn his back on his daughter if she was sent to this hell screaming, "Daddy! Help me please!" I asked him if he would go into hell and hug her and tell her how much he loves her if God gave him the chance and he said, "yes" to my question. I simply told him that his answer revealed that he could love his daughter more than the God who "sooooo loved the world." The religious "god" turns his back on people in hell and will never give a single person in hell a hug and say, "I love you." We can love more than the religious god. Let's stop protecting the god of religion. To hell with that god.
Really quick, religion says that those who argue "no hell" are simply appealing to your nice feelings. We make God so loving. Really? First of all, if we make God too loving then what does that say about your view of God? If we make Him too loving then your not too loving God is reduced to the level of man. This probably explains why most religious people struggle with the love of God. This is probably why people (unbelievers especially) can show more compassion and love than the "god" of religion.
Religion claiming that we appeal to the feelings in mankind is for us to argue back that religion will appeal to fear, guilt, or anything else emotional to keep people in bondage to their hellish doctrine. I hear nothing but exaggerated words concerning Dante's Inferno from hellfire lovers to "scare" hell into people, so who is using emotions to woo people over? I see them making God so unbelievably angry and practically foaming at the mouth. They appeal to the fearful emotions in man. I have challenged pastors on their hellish views and went toe to toe with them on their so-called proof texts, so we do not avoid scripture that they deceitfully claim and hopefully my blog proves that. I do appeal to love as love is far more powerful than fear. Love delivers one from fear. Fear has torment that is religions preferred choice of manipulation. Do I also appeal to reason? Sure, and so do my opponents as to why their "god" must be so cruel and vicious.
I personally witnessed more than one pastor now that has thrown out his belief in hell. I have seen lives transformed when they threw out hellfire. I have seen people come off medication when they threw out hell. Question: Can you quote anyone who became a believer in hellfire and this angry god nonsense who came off his/her meds? I doubt it. My goal is to get them off their meds and give the remaining quantity of their pills to their god.
Religion claiming that we appeal to the feelings in mankind is for us to argue back that religion will appeal to fear, guilt, or anything else emotional to keep people in bondage to their hellish doctrine. I hear nothing but exaggerated words concerning Dante's Inferno from hellfire lovers to "scare" hell into people, so who is using emotions to woo people over? I see them making God so unbelievably angry and practically foaming at the mouth. They appeal to the fearful emotions in man. I have challenged pastors on their hellish views and went toe to toe with them on their so-called proof texts, so we do not avoid scripture that they deceitfully claim and hopefully my blog proves that. I do appeal to love as love is far more powerful than fear. Love delivers one from fear. Fear has torment that is religions preferred choice of manipulation. Do I also appeal to reason? Sure, and so do my opponents as to why their "god" must be so cruel and vicious.
I personally witnessed more than one pastor now that has thrown out his belief in hell. I have seen lives transformed when they threw out hellfire. I have seen people come off medication when they threw out hell. Question: Can you quote anyone who became a believer in hellfire and this angry god nonsense who came off his/her meds? I doubt it. My goal is to get them off their meds and give the remaining quantity of their pills to their god.
When religion tells you that we are simply appealing to the sentiments in people then you need to stop and hear what they are appealing to in people with their hellish teachings. We preach love and they preach fear. Love reaches the heart and fear reaches the flesh. The flesh life reaps death as there is no life in it. We are not seeking to control people like religion does. In religion is bondage.
The one thing I do not understand is why people get so angry when you share the "no hell forever" view. You would think that they would love to hear such news and see if what you are saying is true. I have seen people get nervous when I started to challenge their hell beliefs and I was not even arguing as I refuse to argue. I get people who instantly will stop me and say, "I believe in hell and nothing you can say will change my mind, so I do not want to talk about it." Hell brings the worse out in people. People are afraid to challenge hell.
It is OK to find out if we are wrong especially on the very thing that has crippled the faith of so many. What if I am wrong about hell someone might ask me. Well, if hell is true then I will apologize to God saying, "Sorry God for making you so loving and kind. I am so sorry that many people went to bed weeping with pure joy of believing that you were too good to be true. Sorry for those I helped come off their medication due to their former belief in hell. Sorry for those who were able to lift up their hands in joy unspeakable crying, "My God, My God! Thank you that you have not forsaken me nor will ever forsake me!" Sorry for those I made love you as well as loving others more than before by telling them there is no hellfire in the afterlife of endless punishment. Sorry for saying your love and compassion fails not. Sorry for making them enjoy their existence. I am so sorry for giving people hope that I guess now religion rightfully robbed them of. Sorry for making them sleep better at night. So sorry for making your love beyond comprehension. Sorry, I never knew your love was so limited. I do have a question for you, is my son going to hell? If so, I like to go there forever to be with him. I want to hug him, love him, and do the things you cannot do yourself because I actually "so love" my son that I would like to comfort him the best I can since your love and compassion fails, but I can assure you that my love and compassion will not. I need to go there and personally apologize to my son that I was so wrong about your love and kindness and we both will spend eternity loving and comforting each other more than you ever could. I am surprised that someone as imperfect as me can demonstrate love and compassion far greater than my own creator. Even in your hell, I can demonstrate that." However, if hell is not real then what would you say to God about the monster you made out of Him? What would you say concerning those lives ruined with fear and anxiety? Think about that! Which shoes would you rather be in? The God of love or the god of endless pain and torture?
It is OK to find out if we are wrong especially on the very thing that has crippled the faith of so many. What if I am wrong about hell someone might ask me. Well, if hell is true then I will apologize to God saying, "Sorry God for making you so loving and kind. I am so sorry that many people went to bed weeping with pure joy of believing that you were too good to be true. Sorry for those I helped come off their medication due to their former belief in hell. Sorry for those who were able to lift up their hands in joy unspeakable crying, "My God, My God! Thank you that you have not forsaken me nor will ever forsake me!" Sorry for those I made love you as well as loving others more than before by telling them there is no hellfire in the afterlife of endless punishment. Sorry for saying your love and compassion fails not. Sorry for making them enjoy their existence. I am so sorry for giving people hope that I guess now religion rightfully robbed them of. Sorry for making them sleep better at night. So sorry for making your love beyond comprehension. Sorry, I never knew your love was so limited. I do have a question for you, is my son going to hell? If so, I like to go there forever to be with him. I want to hug him, love him, and do the things you cannot do yourself because I actually "so love" my son that I would like to comfort him the best I can since your love and compassion fails, but I can assure you that my love and compassion will not. I need to go there and personally apologize to my son that I was so wrong about your love and kindness and we both will spend eternity loving and comforting each other more than you ever could. I am surprised that someone as imperfect as me can demonstrate love and compassion far greater than my own creator. Even in your hell, I can demonstrate that." However, if hell is not real then what would you say to God about the monster you made out of Him? What would you say concerning those lives ruined with fear and anxiety? Think about that! Which shoes would you rather be in? The God of love or the god of endless pain and torture?
Would it really mess up religious people and their lives if they discovered that God was too good to be true? Would it ruin their sleep to know that God's love fails not? Would religious people leave heaven if they found God playing cards with a table full of men/women they knew were homosexuals in this life? I only mention homosexuals because they drive religious people to the point of boiling with their self-righteousness. Would they be just like the Pharisee who could not believe if Jesus were a true prophet would allow a prostitute to wash His feet with her hair and tears?
The first step in enjoying grace and love is getting away from religion and its lies. It is challenging everything you were taught. If challenging your hellish views produces fear where maybe what you are hearing is from the voice of the enemy that religion planted in your mind then you have been programmed by religion to be closed minded and entertain veils they call truth. Maybe a few more years of struggles will bring you to the point of finally questioning what you have been taught.
Only religion says that the devil will make you think there is no such thing as an eternal hellfire of endless pain and punishment but those words comes from ZERO verses of scripture. No verse shares anyone said to be deceived for not believing in some after death hellfire but it does not stop religion from continuously inventing new verses to back their nonsense. What if it is the devil telling you the lies about an endless hell? The devil is a deceiver and welcome to religion that is his pulpit.
Religion will do whatever to scare you from listening and challenging what you were taught. If Paul was resurrected and preached a "no hellfire forever" message then I am sure that religion would reject him too. Would you hear Paul or would you listen to your religion that might say, "Do not listen to that man. He is not the real resurrected Paul but a devil in sheep's clothing"?
This is what religion does to people. It makes them fearful of anyone who teaches anything other than what "they" teach. It is true in most religions. If religion can plant fear into you then they own you. If you start to challenge religion then notice that they will preach a fearful message to you to win you back. This is how they keep you bound and blind. They do not want grace and the unconditional love of God proclaimed because you cannot manipulate people with such things.
Love frees but fear binds. Are you free? Are you enjoying life (abundant life)?
Only religion says that the devil will make you think there is no such thing as an eternal hellfire of endless pain and punishment but those words comes from ZERO verses of scripture. No verse shares anyone said to be deceived for not believing in some after death hellfire but it does not stop religion from continuously inventing new verses to back their nonsense. What if it is the devil telling you the lies about an endless hell? The devil is a deceiver and welcome to religion that is his pulpit.
Religion will do whatever to scare you from listening and challenging what you were taught. If Paul was resurrected and preached a "no hellfire forever" message then I am sure that religion would reject him too. Would you hear Paul or would you listen to your religion that might say, "Do not listen to that man. He is not the real resurrected Paul but a devil in sheep's clothing"?
This is what religion does to people. It makes them fearful of anyone who teaches anything other than what "they" teach. It is true in most religions. If religion can plant fear into you then they own you. If you start to challenge religion then notice that they will preach a fearful message to you to win you back. This is how they keep you bound and blind. They do not want grace and the unconditional love of God proclaimed because you cannot manipulate people with such things.
Love frees but fear binds. Are you free? Are you enjoying life (abundant life)?
Get rid of religion!
For further reading:
Video:
A poem:
Can you really imagine a God of love….
Sitting in heaven, relaxing above…..
And, deciding, one day….. to make up a place….
Void of His love and His mercy and grace?!?
Can you really believe it?!?! That, Our best friend…..
Could make up a torture that never would end…
Only a Father who’d gone insane……
Could punish His children in endless pain!!!
Religionists carefully formed a dark plan…
In order to scare and control every man…
A story, quite gory..to keep us in line….
I guess they forgot..we can still use our mind!
We cannot be fooled by their demonic spirit…
Our father is speaking..and, YES! We can hear it!
He’s pouring out His revelation of LOVE…..
Where nothing below….. and nothing above…..
Could ever, no NEVER, not once separate us….
His Nature is LOVE… there’s no way He could hate us…
Or banish us…. torture or cook us forever….
His LOVE and his mercy won’t fail us… NOT EVER!!!
Sitting in heaven, relaxing above…..
And, deciding, one day….. to make up a place….
Void of His love and His mercy and grace?!?
Can you really believe it?!?! That, Our best friend…..
Could make up a torture that never would end…
Only a Father who’d gone insane……
Could punish His children in endless pain!!!
Religionists carefully formed a dark plan…
In order to scare and control every man…
A story, quite gory..to keep us in line….
I guess they forgot..we can still use our mind!
We cannot be fooled by their demonic spirit…
Our father is speaking..and, YES! We can hear it!
He’s pouring out His revelation of LOVE…..
Where nothing below….. and nothing above…..
Could ever, no NEVER, not once separate us….
His Nature is LOVE… there’s no way He could hate us…
Or banish us…. torture or cook us forever….
His LOVE and his mercy won’t fail us… NOT EVER!!!
by Robert Rutherford
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Question on OSAS or Eternal Security
Question: Do you believe in Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved?
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Answer: Personally, I find the entire OSAS versus losing salvation (conditional security) to be ridiculous. OSAS teaches that the moment you “believe” then God does all these amazing things to you that cannot be undone but He was incapable of doing anything until you consented (believed). Conditional security teaches that the moment you believe and turn from your sins then God gives you “initial” salvation but not “final” salvation where you can end up not saved.
I will say at first that I do not agree with CS. I might sound like an OSAS believer but it is not my belief. My blog will certainly offer comfort to those who believe and teach OSAS/Eternal Security. I simply preach security and not to those that have done this thing called believing. Believing is how the security is enjoyed. Receiving is comprehending or beholding a reality. It is turning from LIES. If it is LIES then it was never a reality. Truth proclaims a reality.
I will say at first that I do not agree with CS. I might sound like an OSAS believer but it is not my belief. My blog will certainly offer comfort to those who believe and teach OSAS/Eternal Security. I simply preach security and not to those that have done this thing called believing. Believing is how the security is enjoyed. Receiving is comprehending or beholding a reality. It is turning from LIES. If it is LIES then it was never a reality. Truth proclaims a reality.
It amazes me how OSAS will accuse conditional security (CS) for making “believing” a work because CS claims you have to “continually” believe to be saved rather than believing for a brief moment. CS will ask OSAS:
“How is our believing any different from yours? You claim one must believe to get saved and we agree. We simply say you must continually believe to be saved and you say that you have to at some point believe to be saved. How is believing for a few moments not a work but believing more than a few moments is a work when we both require the same thing to be saved? We both are exercising the same believing but ours simply lasts longer, so at what point does believing that you claim one must DO turn into a work?
Let's say that you are right and that only an instant of believing is required then I still do not see how continuous believing is a work. You make the same claim, "Believing is REQUIRED to be saved" and again, we agree. If believing is how one gets saved then how will continuously believing have any other than the same end result than yours?
Will the gospel fail the one who continuously believes it? Is not that person still continuously believing the same message you claimed to have believed for a moment to be saved? It is odd that you claim that the man/woman believing the gospel will die and go to hell for continuously believing the gospel. You say you must believe to be saved and so do we, but how is exercising the exact same believing now a work? Are you saying that your 2 seconds of believing will result in heaven for you but 20 years of believing the same message would result in hell for us?
If one had to run 2 miles to win a prize but one man chose to run 30 miles then I think we would agree that the man who ran 30 miles did not need to go so far to win a prize, but the fact is, both men had to run to get the prize. The man who ran 30 miles won the prize a long time ago, so running an extra 28 miles would never undo the prize because the requirement was 2 miles to win.
5 seconds of believing or 5 years of believing is a distinction the bible does not make. It simply says in the present tense, "believe and be saved" and that is what we are doing. Our belief is that 30 miles was required to win the prize and not 2 miles, but to call our belief a work is as silly as claiming the man who ran 30 miles was running but the other who ran 2 miles never was running. If believing continuously is a work then obviously a few seconds is the same person on the same jogging track, as both are doing the SAME thing but one simply does it longer than the other.
The point is, the belief we believe one needs to exercise to be saved is the same as yours but that it simply lasts longer than just a few seconds. I think it is strange to say that we will go to hell for believing continuously the death, burial, and resurrection gospel. However, if 30 miles was required to be saved then what will happen to your man who only ran 2 miles? At least we can say, "We are believing the gospel" versus your man that stopped 28 miles ago.”
“How is our believing any different from yours? You claim one must believe to get saved and we agree. We simply say you must continually believe to be saved and you say that you have to at some point believe to be saved. How is believing for a few moments not a work but believing more than a few moments is a work when we both require the same thing to be saved? We both are exercising the same believing but ours simply lasts longer, so at what point does believing that you claim one must DO turn into a work?
Let's say that you are right and that only an instant of believing is required then I still do not see how continuous believing is a work. You make the same claim, "Believing is REQUIRED to be saved" and again, we agree. If believing is how one gets saved then how will continuously believing have any other than the same end result than yours?
Will the gospel fail the one who continuously believes it? Is not that person still continuously believing the same message you claimed to have believed for a moment to be saved? It is odd that you claim that the man/woman believing the gospel will die and go to hell for continuously believing the gospel. You say you must believe to be saved and so do we, but how is exercising the exact same believing now a work? Are you saying that your 2 seconds of believing will result in heaven for you but 20 years of believing the same message would result in hell for us?
If one had to run 2 miles to win a prize but one man chose to run 30 miles then I think we would agree that the man who ran 30 miles did not need to go so far to win a prize, but the fact is, both men had to run to get the prize. The man who ran 30 miles won the prize a long time ago, so running an extra 28 miles would never undo the prize because the requirement was 2 miles to win.
5 seconds of believing or 5 years of believing is a distinction the bible does not make. It simply says in the present tense, "believe and be saved" and that is what we are doing. Our belief is that 30 miles was required to win the prize and not 2 miles, but to call our belief a work is as silly as claiming the man who ran 30 miles was running but the other who ran 2 miles never was running. If believing continuously is a work then obviously a few seconds is the same person on the same jogging track, as both are doing the SAME thing but one simply does it longer than the other.
The point is, the belief we believe one needs to exercise to be saved is the same as yours but that it simply lasts longer than just a few seconds. I think it is strange to say that we will go to hell for believing continuously the death, burial, and resurrection gospel. However, if 30 miles was required to be saved then what will happen to your man who only ran 2 miles? At least we can say, "We are believing the gospel" versus your man that stopped 28 miles ago.”
I do believe OSAS and CS make believing a work. I believe the above illustrates how both truly are on the same jogging track but OSAS jumps off the track early and then accuses the other of jogging when OSAS clearly jogged at one point. I've seen OSAS accuse them of putting their trust in believing as to why they make it a work, but I see OSAS stating, "I know I am saved because on June 3rd, 1990, I BELIEVED the message and the bible says that whosoever BELIEVES shall be saved." Sounds the same to me as to what they are accusing CS of doing.
OSAS says that if you have BELIEVED at any point in your life then you are eternally secure. What do you think a person goes looking for to determine if they are saved or not? Looks as though they are looking to the day they have BELIEVED to me. Some even say that if you do not know the day and time you believed then you probably never believed to begin with and that sounds like trust in believing to me. Some even claim that if you were never fully persuaded then you never were saved. Some in the Free Grace camp claim that if your believing had any doubts in it concerning the gospel and being saved then you were never saved. This again to me sounds like a belief in their believing. It probably explains why so many repeat the erroneous sinner's prayer. It probably explains why many doubt if they believed enough or the right way. The fact that OSAS attacks me for preaching an already reality that we come to believe tells me that they see believing as a work one does to get something. In OSAS, you have to DO something to get something. No different that what CS believes and teaches. The only different is that CS extends the time limit on believing and OSAS complains about it. I see OSAS just as guilty as CS.
OSAS says that if you have BELIEVED at any point in your life then you are eternally secure. What do you think a person goes looking for to determine if they are saved or not? Looks as though they are looking to the day they have BELIEVED to me. Some even say that if you do not know the day and time you believed then you probably never believed to begin with and that sounds like trust in believing to me. Some even claim that if you were never fully persuaded then you never were saved. Some in the Free Grace camp claim that if your believing had any doubts in it concerning the gospel and being saved then you were never saved. This again to me sounds like a belief in their believing. It probably explains why so many repeat the erroneous sinner's prayer. It probably explains why many doubt if they believed enough or the right way. The fact that OSAS attacks me for preaching an already reality that we come to believe tells me that they see believing as a work one does to get something. In OSAS, you have to DO something to get something. No different that what CS believes and teaches. The only different is that CS extends the time limit on believing and OSAS complains about it. I see OSAS just as guilty as CS.
Religion is obsessed with the word saved. People hear the word saved and they immediately think about the afterlife and some hell/heaven to come. Start with the Old Testament and look up the words “salvation” and “saved.” Also, look up the phrase “shall be saved” in the Old Testament. You will discover that a physical salvation from a certain event on planet earth was implied or talked about. It could be one saved from pestilence, enemies, or even death. How is it that we go from saved as taught in the OT to saved from hellfire in some afterlife in the New Testament never once taught in the Old Testament? Maybe it is because religion has twisted our way of seeing certain verses.
Also, look up the word “perish” in the OT and then ask yourself, “How does “perish” now mean in some literal burning hell forever in conscience agony when the Old Testament never taught that?”
I do not want to repeat things I have already shared in my other blogs. I do want people to read scripture and ask, “Is this being saved in the afterlife or on planet earth?” If I preached to New Yorkers back in January of 2001 a prophetic message warning them about planes crashing into the Twin Towers and those believing my message will be “saved” versus those who reject the message and “perish” then it should be clear that I am talking about a physical salvation. Could it be possible that scripture was talking about a physical salvation in the NT? I shared a lot concerning this in my blog on Acts 2:38: Water Baptism? Baptism of Repentance? Acts 2:38?...
Look at Matthew 24:13:
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
The above verse is used by religion to teach an after death salvation. CS believes the above verse teaches you can lose your salvation and go to some hellfire in the afterlife. Lordship Salvation teaches that one who does not endure to the end gives evidence that they never savingly believed at any moment. They claim that if one is truly saved then they will always endure to the end. A big clue that you are hearing a line of bologna from religion is when they give you an answer coming from NOTHING in the context or scripture.
What is saved in Matthew 24:13? The “he/she” is saved from the death and destruction talked about in the context. It had NOTHING to do with an after death experience and it certainly was not some hellfire in the afterlife nonsense. Look at verse 22 that clearly defines what is saved:
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
We are talking about “those days” that I believe is past, but it clearly states, “no FLESH be saved” as it was a physical salvation. The verse was not even addressing you!
Physical salvation could be lost. If I warned about impending doom of 9/11 back in 2001 and my initial believers later rejected my message then they would have perished in the Twin Towers. If they have believed me then they would have never perished or died. Look at Hebrews 10:38-39:
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
What amazes me is how many see the above referring to an after death experience in hell inside a book that never once talked about hell.
The drawing back addressed Jews who were returning to the sacrificial system. The context was them returning back to the Temple but these Jews needed to hear, “there remains NO MORE sacrifice for sins” (verse 26) as the author of Hebrews made that clear throughout chapter 10. There remains no more sacrifice for sins (vs. 26) because there truly was no more “offering for sin” (verse 18). Jesus offered His body as the once for all sacrifice (vss. 10, 12).
These Jews needed to know that going back to the Temple was to trodden underfoot the Son of God in order to do so. In order to go back to the old system would require them to stomp right over Jesus Christ and His sacrifice to get back to the sacrificial system.
These Jews were warned in chapter 6 that such a repentance is “impossible” but the context states that it was a “repentance from dead things” (animal sacrifices) in 6:1. Their falling away was not a return to, “Hey! Let’s go out and sin as much as possible” but rather them returning to the Levitical system of trying to deal with their sins that Christ already took care of once and for all. This puts Christ to an open shame.
The author of Hebrews states how Esau after much tears could not find a place of repentance in chapter 12. The passage had nothing to do with an after death experience but was simply saying that as Esau could not change Isaac’s mind about the blessing that was rightfully his, as they were to know that God will not change His mind concerning Jesus Christ. You (Jews back then) can return back all you like to the old system but God’s mind can and will never be changed.
These were people facing great persecution. They were tempted to return back and the author of Hebrews wanted them to not forsake gathering themselves together during that time. These Jews needed to know that drawing back was “perdition” that was nigh. This would be the same as me preaching in 2001, “To return back to the Twin Towers will result in death.”
The “saving of the soul” is referring to one’s physical life. The soul is what God breathed into man as he became a LIVING soul. It is unfortunate that every time a person sees or hears the word “save, saved, or salvation” that hellfire or the afterlife runs through their heads thanks to religion. The meaning here in Hebrews 10 is the preservation of one’s physical life. This is the enduring to the end to be saved you are reading about in Hebrews 10:39.
The saving of the soul is the preserving of one's life.
39 Butdewehēmeisareeiminotouofthosewhoshrinkbackhypostolēandareeislostapōleia,butallaareofthosewhoarefaithfulpistisandsoeispreserveperipoiēsistheirsoulpsychē. (Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament).
The above gives the verse and its meaning from the Greek but what happens when we allow religion to add words NOWHERE stated in the verse or context to make us see it from their perspective? Look at the modern NLV and how they altered the verse drastically:
39 We are not of those people who turn back and are lost. Instead, we have faith to be saved from the punishment of sin.
Saved from the punishment of sin??? Hebrews 10 was about how to avoid punishment of sin??? I did not know that Hebrews 10 presented such a failure they call Jesus. Verse 39 in the NLV is nowhere near what was presented in the previous verses. Hebrews 10 presented sin as completely dealt with but this version makes it quite the opposite.
Hebrews 10 was the once for all sacrifice and how we are made holy once for all and perfected forever. How God remembers our sins no more because there is no more sin offering. This was how the author was seeking to plead to these Jews as a reason not to return back to the Temple because the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin. Their sins were dealt with in full so why return to something that was impossible? The above translation simply read their hellish and wimpy Jesus interpretation into the verse. If you have an NLV then toss it out in the trash. You have to be careful of newer versions because some of them will alter verses to support their religious beliefs.
Now let's look at other versions that did not seek to stray as did the NLV:
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. (NASV)
39 and we are not of those drawing back to destruction, but of those believing to a preserving of soul. (YLT)
39 But we are not they which withdraw ourselves unto perdition, but followfaith unto the conservation of the soul. (1599 Geneva Bible).
39 However, we are not the kind who shrink back and are destroyed; on the contrary, we keep trusting and thus preserve our lives! (Complete Jewish Bible)
Can salvation be lost? If we are defining it as a physical salvation then the answer is yes. However, nobody today is being warned of a coming destruction upon a Temple. Nobody is drawing back to a sacrificial system. Only religion will try to spiritualize such verses and make them apply to just about anything you do. I see verses from Hebrews ripped from its context to somehow mean you can lose salvation if you stop going to church. How you can apostasize and never be renewed to salvation nonsense. This is religion at its worst. Religion is spewing forth lies. Religion is also sounding warnings that would be equivalent to me today going to New York and warning people that the Twin Towers will be destroyed when clearly such a destruction is past.
I listen to these people yelling at street corners using Luke 13:5 "except ye repent...you will perish" as somehow referring to an after death experience inside a passage never talking about any after death experience. They preach it as though it was addressing the gospel of grace in the context. One needs to read the context to see who were being warned and to also notice that the perishing had NOTHING to do with a rejection of any death, burial, and resurrection gospel. The chapter began about Galileans blood shed at the hands of Pilate so the concern and the context had death in view. The "perishing" had this death in view (death only was in the context) and never some after death perishing where one never ultimately perishes according to hellfire lovers. The people warned in Luke 13 are no longer alive today. The vineyard was Israel and not the United Kingdom or America. Please see how "perish" was consistently used throughout the OT and maybe you will see the deceitfulness of religion and be done with them.
What Christ accomplished at Calvary can never be destroyed. Our unbelief does not make the "faith of" (faithfulness) God without effect (Romans 3:3). If we believe not is to know that Christ abides faithful. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and we can either believe that or live thinking that Jesus is helpless until we help Him. You can read my blogs on Gehenna and see that it addressed only the land of the living and not some after death experience:
In Adam all die but in Christ all shall be made alive. We can either believe it or twist it. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess and we can either believe it or twist it. Jesus has taken away the sin of the world that we can either believe or twist. Jesus is the savior of the world that we can either believe or twist. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world that we can either believe or twist.
We can either pat ourselves on our backs saying, “Whew! I am so glad that I did that thing called believing because it was only then God could forgive me and take me to heaven. Too bad and so sad for those who never get to hear this message. I am so thankful that I was born in a country that preaches this version of the gospel because I could have been born in a tribe doomed to hellfire.” What nonsense!
However, we can rejoice in the One who has taken away the sin of the world (John 1:29). Rejoice in the One who was reconciled to this world and is NOT imputing sin to the world that was only through the death of Him (2nd Cor. 5:19). We can read in 2nd Corinthians 5:14 that Christ died for all and that ALL died with Him, as we can either accept that "those that have died with Him shall live with Him" (2nd Timothy 2:11) as a reality.
You can selfishly rejoice in your, “I am so thankful I gave God the permission to forgive me” that contradicts 2ndCor. 5:19, but I prefer to never cheapen what He had accomplished for me. I had no freewill in Adam who brought death to all and the same “no freewill” is also implied in the Jesus who undid what the first Adam brought upon us.
Remember, eternal (aionion life) life is not immortality as the bible separates the two. Eternal life refers to the quality and immortality refers to the quantity. Eternal life is knowing Him (John 17:3). It is not the same as, "In Christ, all shall be made alive." We all shared in His death and we all share in His resurrection. Unbelievers are no worse than us. They simply will not experience the abundant life here but many do enjoy life far better than most professing believers.
Are you experiencing the abundant life or do unbelievers seem happier than you? If you believe unbelievers appear happier then you most likely are an unbeliever. I am not talking about finances and health. Unbelievers can be quite wealthy and healthy. If unbelievers appear to be at peace and happier than you then clearly what you believe is a depressing message that promotes bondage. If you take an unbeliever who appeared happy and now he/she becomes fearful, depressed, full of doubts and uncertainty, crying out to God because they constantly feel so sinful then your message is a lie.
I remember my sister who died from a malignant brain tumor writing questions for me on paper because the tumor affected her hearing. My religion instill so much fear into her that she had questions about her coming death. I gave her the best religious answers at the time but since insecurity (conditional statements) surrounded the comfort I sought to give her ended up not doing much. I was preaching my former Calvinism and Lordship Salvation nonsense to her at that time but did my very best to give her assurance and comfort that I knew I did not have personally at that time. That was in 1991. She died in January of 1992.
The gospel of grace is not a gospel of, "Do you want to go to heaven when you die?" as that is what religion says. The gospel of grace is the answer to your insecurities. The gospel of religion reinforces insecurities.
The gospel of grace is a fear not message. It is knowing that we are not rejected but accepted in the beloved, as He will never leave us or forsake us. Perfect love casts out all fear and that is something you will never find in religion. The gospel of grace is a message of joy unspeakable. The gospel of grace is a message of pure love. The gospel of grace is beholding no condemnation. The gospel of grace is beholding the love of Christ that passes knowledge. The gospel of grace is where we can boldly approach the throne of grace. The gospel of grace is where peace passes all understanding. The gospel of grace is where we behold no imperfections as we are perfected forever in Him. We no longer see ourselves as insignificant. We are complete in Him. We do not see ourselves as worthless pieces of sinful scum before God. We no longer have to hide in shame. We no longer have to try and cover things up anymore. We no longer have to try and be like God as was the sin of Adam and Eve. The gospel is that we are created after the image of Him in righteousness and true holiness. The gospel of grace is where we can see our God truly pleased with us as we are, and we can be a workman with such a glorious knowledge knowing we have nothing to be ashamed about. The gospel is where we have no threats hanging over our heads. The gospel reveals that as Christ is, so are we in this world. If you have seen the Son then you have seen the Father, but to see yourself is to see the Son. We have unity with the Father, Son, and Spirit. We are joined with Him. Beholding Him is how we are transformed (2nd Cor. 3:18). The gospel of grace reveals our infinite value. The gospel of grace reveals how we are the praise of His glory. The gospel of grace reveals how we are reconciled and never alienated, as alienation was only in our minds (Col. 1:21). He is not our enemy, but we are loved and cherished. Our sins are forgiven. The gospel reveals that we are the sons and daughters He always wanted. We are a good dream and never a bad dream. The gospel is the answer to our insecurities. We can cast all our insecurities/cares upon Him for He cares for us.
Living in fear, depression, and anxiety is never to be produced by the gospel but rather removed. Any insecurity you have is based on a lie and reinforced by religion. Any negative opinion you have of yourself does not come from God but religion. You have a faulty view of yourself. Do you have full assurance? If not, religious insecurity is preaching in your ear. Sometimes people are afraid (insecurity) to challenge the very thing they know is causing their insecurity (often it is the religious hell garbage).
One is the abundant life. It is life and peace. The other is death as such a life comes from the administration of death (Law). Does your religion or belief in God make you feel guilty, uncertain, scared and fearful, utterly sinful before God? Are you still reading articles on OSAS but still found no lasting relief? Do you think you have to preach the bad news before the good news to others? If so, you are preaching insecurity and you have yet to hear the good news. You are bound by religion/insecurity and probably are calling your experience freedom when your heart knows better.
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Are you fearful to challenge your beliefs? You will find the moment your religion discovers that you are challenging your fears and insecurities is when they will preach at you more insecurities. If they can implant fear then you will not challenge them. You will remain a prisoner. Try telling your church members that you are having doubts concerning hellfire. Tell them that you are studying books that teach there is no hell and see what happens. Be sure to see if they throw any insecurity message your way. See if they get very angry with you. Look for the signs of religious insecurity.
I am not into the OSAS debate because the whole message of how one supposedly gets OSAS is flawed. I believe they promote a works oriented gospel. This is why many of them ask, "Did I believe enough? Did I believe the right way? Did I believe the right gospel? Did I truly see Christ dying for my sins? Do I actually believe this gospel or am I just saying that to feel better? What if religion is correct and I must continuously believe? What if my works prove I am not saved? What if salvation can be lost? How do I know God actually saved me when I feel exactly the same? Why does God seem so distant from me? Is there some unconfessed sin in my life? Why do I feel so guilty?" Only the insecure ask such questions.
Insecurity keeps people from questioning their beliefs. Some get nervous or extremely angry (fear and anger often are connected) if someone comes along and preaches an opposing message. I have seen people get so nervous when hearing of a pastor of their same denomination that became an atheist after many years. Insecurity promotes blindness/closed minded people. I am not talking about getting annoyed with those who seek to disrupt a good conversation or those who just wish to argue. Paul admonished us against debates. However, I get those who do not want to hear anything against their precious hell. They will not care to get into a discussion with me and will often stop me short because they have this fear of what "no hell" would mean to them. It would mean the collapse of their religion. On the other hand, if a person does want to talk hell with me but simply will not answer my questions then I personally will stop the conversation because I know I am dealing with a closed minded person.
I do not believe in OSAS or eternal security as taught by religion. I do not have any fear that I will not be with family who did not believe the gospel. I do not bear such religious insecurities. This is why they struggle to think whatsoever things are true, lovely, and of a good report because their minds are preoccupied with sins, guilt, condemnation, hellfire, and so on.
My God is better than the religious god whose love fails. Nobody in scripture feared not being reunited with their loved ones. Such insecurity only exists in religion. The insecurity people have is what causes them to beat their kids into submission. I know of people punished by family, friends, and their church for questioning hell. Insecurity of any kind can bring the worst out in people. The abundant life is a freedom of our insecurities. Walk in love is a walk free of those insane religious insecurities. It is walking and enjoying life free from having a religious guilt and sin conscious mindset.
My God is better than the religious god whose love fails. Nobody in scripture feared not being reunited with their loved ones. Such insecurity only exists in religion. The insecurity people have is what causes them to beat their kids into submission. I know of people punished by family, friends, and their church for questioning hell. Insecurity of any kind can bring the worst out in people. The abundant life is a freedom of our insecurities. Walk in love is a walk free of those insane religious insecurities. It is walking and enjoying life free from having a religious guilt and sin conscious mindset.
Do you want to enjoy the abundant life or will fear keep you from questioning your pastor or upbringing?
Eternal Security should be the knowledge that, "God's love never fails. God's mercy fails not. Christ died for all. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Behold the Lamb of God that has taken away the sin of the world! In Christ, all shall be made alive. Christ died for His enemies. No condemnation in Christ Jesus. No alienation. Who is he that condemns (religion obviously) when Christ died? Nothing can separate us from His love." People need to hear "security" but without all the insane conditions that religion inserts back into it. Security is what will breed faith and love. Preaching conditions breeds doubt but preaching an already reality breeds faith and assurance.
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Question: Luke 16:19-31 Parable or Literal?
Question: Did you write up a blog about Luke 16:19-31? You believe this is a parable from one of the Pharisees? Do you have evidence? Luke was a known scholar and historian, why didn't he say this is a parable like any other parable?
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons...
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons
And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day
Ask yourself, who do you believe will experience this form of hades in the afterlife? You probably will say those who rejected the gospel of grace. You might say even those who never heard the gospel. Now compare your answers to the passage and notice how you will have to read such words into the story nowhere found. You will only try to make your beliefs as plausible as possible. Notice how you will not recommend reading Moses to the unbelievers.
The above was taken from:
What is the Talmud? Here is one definition:
Is the literature that Jesus was familiar with in his early years yet in existence in the world? Is it possible for us to get at it? Can we ourselves review the ideas, the statements, the modes of reasoning and thinking, on moral and religious subjects, which were current in his time, and must have been [resolved] by him during those silent thirty years when he was pondering his future mission? To such inquiries the learned class of Jewish rabbis answer by holding up the Talmud. Here, say they, is the source from whence Jesus of Nazareth drew the teaching which enabled him to revolutionize the world; and the question becomes, therefore, an interesting one to every Christian, What is the Talmud? …
The Talmud, then, is the written form of that which, in the time of Jesus, was called the TRADITIONS of the Elders, and to which he makes frequent allusions. (Rabbi Michael L. Rodkinson)
Was Caiaphas dead? No, he was still alive, but this so called “non-parable” by our traditionalists fails to see that the story has these men as ALREADY DEAD. It was a parable rebuking the religious leaders.
Answer: The above question was from an email I received earlier this week. Below was my email response to him but I made additions to that original email below:
How do I know it was a parable? Look at how Luke 16:19 begins:
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
This is how some of the parables of Jesus began. They began with, "There was a certain...." Look at Matthew 21:33:
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country
Luke 7:41:
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
It can refer to a real event or a parable. Chapters 15 and into 16 is quite obvious that Jesus was talking in parables, and Jesus was known to speak almost exclusively in parables when addressing crowds and even Pharisees. Do you believe the prodigal son was a parable? It does not state it was a parable but we accept it as such. Verse 11 begins with:
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons...
Two literal sons? No, it was a rebuke to the Pharisees as was also the parable in Luke 16. Read the whole prodigal son story and you will not find it called a parable but it is universally accepted as a parable. You will find commentaries (not all) that consider Luke 16:19 a parable. I will share later why E. W. Bullinger said Luke 16:19-31 was not called a parable.
How most know it was indeed a parable was by how each parable consistently began and the succession of parables to follow. Look from Luke 15 on and you see for yourself:
Luke 15:3:
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying...
Luke 15:11:
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons
Luke 16:1:
And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
Luke 16:1 is accepted as a parable. I do not know anyone who disagrees with that. Notice that Luke 16:1 begins with, "There was a certain rich man" because verse 19 reads:
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day
Do you see how one parable after another began with “There was a certain…”? If you compare each parable is to see a specific truth being taught. Prodigal son was not literally "dead" as it stated but it was teaching a truth. To somehow think the rich man is no longer a parable when Jesus had been teaching nothing but parables in the previous context causes a problem. Are we saying that Jesus went from one parable after another and then decided to talk about one actual event?
One argument against Luke 16:19-31 being a parable was because actual names were used. Not sure how that is even an argument. How can a parable not use a real name? In the OT, we can see stories that involved real people. The Lord sent Nathan to David in 2nd Samuel where Nathan shared a "story" directed at David himself (2nd Samuel 12:1-7). It was a story but David was the man the story was about. The same thing is done in Ezekiel 23 where two names are mentioned in the story (verses 1-4). Jesus had used Himself in His own parables in the book of Matthew. In Luke 4:23 is where we find a "proverb" and Jesus was the physician referenced in the story:
23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician (applying to Jesus here), heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
Here are Barnes Notes on the above verse:
The connection of this proverb, here, is this: "You profess to be the Messiah. You have performed miracles at Capernaum. You profess to be able to deliver us from our maladies, our sins, our afflictions. Show that you have the power, that you are worthy of our confidence, by working miracles here, as you profess to have done at Capernaum."
To say that it cannot be a parable in Luke 16 because Jesus mentions a name is not an argument from scripture or even stories in general that uses real names. The OT used real names in "stories" and so does the NT to teach something. People believing in a literal Satan and devil should know that they were used in parables with the mentioning of their names. The words "son of man" were used in a parable.
Here is what I do not get with their argument. If the mentioning of an actual name or referencing an actual person somehow means that it probably was not a parable then we have a problem. Luke 16:1 begins with:
And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
Literal or parable? The above verse is universally accepted as the 'parable of the unjust steward.' Why is that a parable but not verse 19 that begins with:
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day
Verse 19 begins identical to the story in verse 1, "There was a certain rich man." Religion says that the "certain rich man" in verse 1 was a parable but the "certain rich man" in verse 19 was actual??
The phrase "There was a certain..." is used many times throughout the Bible to refer to a real person and it clearly was used in parables too. Look at Luke 14:2:
2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
The above clearly was no parable but Luke 16:1 was, so are we going to ignore this fact that the words "there was a certain..." can refer to a parable or an actual person? My point is that real people can be used in a fictional story. Verse 1, "There was a certain rich man" that religion calls a parable and verse 19, "There was a certain rich man" that religion calls literal.
The use of the words "there was a certain..." could be used to refer to an actual person/account or as a story/parable of an actual person. This is exactly what Nathan had done with David in 2nd Samuel. Nathan shared a story about David to David.
Religion plays games because they want their hell, so now hades is hell, along with Gehenna, along with the Lake of Fire, and along with Tartaroo. God supposedly created 4 hells even though hades was never seen in the OT as hellfire once in some afterlife but only in the tradition of the Pharisees as I will quote Josephus shortly proving that. It was a parable against the Pharisees and their traditions and religion is merely parroting a tradition to this day.
Religion plays games because they want their hell, so now hades is hell, along with Gehenna, along with the Lake of Fire, and along with Tartaroo. God supposedly created 4 hells even though hades was never seen in the OT as hellfire once in some afterlife but only in the tradition of the Pharisees as I will quote Josephus shortly proving that. It was a parable against the Pharisees and their traditions and religion is merely parroting a tradition to this day.
How did the rich man go to this hell? Well, if it were a literal account then we must read it literally. The context seems to indicate going to this “hades” is due to not giving to the poor, so I guess going to heaven is by giving to the needy. The one who had it good in this life will fry forever and the one who had dogs licking his sores goes to heaven. Do you agree with that? So the one gets it much worse in the afterlife than the one who had it bad in this life??
You will find that ONLY religion inserts words into the passage not there by telling you that a true Christian would share his/her wealth to the poor. They claim that this rich man gave evidence that he was not a Christian by not giving to the poor, as they claim he did not have good works. That is completely stupid. Why not say that rich people in general who do not give money to the poor go to hell?
You have to look for the lesson being taught and Luke 16:19-31 certainly was not, "You better believe Jesus or you will go to hell" nonsense taught ONLY by religion. Do not read Luke 16 as saying, “If you do not believe the gospel of grace of the death, burial, and resurrection then you go to hell” because that is only religion saying that. There was no death, burial, and resurrection gospel even implied. The rich man was not accused of refusing to believe the gospel of grace anywhere. This is religion adding words to the passage so that it fits comfortably with their hellish views of what happens if you do not accept "their version" of the so-called good news they spew.
Do you find religion giving the same advice to unbelievers that Abraham gave to the rich man in this parable? Do you find religion telling unbelievers, “You have Moses and the prophets... hear them”? I did not know that Moses preached the death, burial, and resurrection gospel. Religion leaves all this stuff out and will add words and thoughts (their version of the gospel) to a parable nowhere taught. Ask yourself, who do you believe will experience this form of hades in the afterlife? You probably will say those who rejected the gospel of grace. You might say even those who never heard the gospel. Now compare your answers to the passage and notice how you will have to read such words into the story nowhere found. You will only try to make your beliefs as plausible as possible. Notice how you will not recommend reading Moses to the unbelievers.
How I also know it was a parable was because Lazarus was carried off into Abraham's bosom. What in the world is Abraham's bosom? It was not an OT teaching. Religion says that it pictures rest. Really? Abraham's bosom? Religion says that this was a literal account because it mentioned Abraham, so it must be a literal account that we sit in his lap too.
We go to be with Abraham at death and rest upon his chest? Verse please?? Not all even agree it pictures rest and that is because we have NO VERSE anywhere teaching us that. You have to read the tradition of the Pharisees to get the meaning, as this parable was spoken to them.
The imagery of Abraham's bosom sounds just like a parable would. So after death we go to Abraham's bosom? I want you to think about that because I do not know of anyone making such claims today. The imagery of one drop of water cooling a person frying in supposed literal flames is utterly ridiculous. Forget the flames and just try adding one drop of water to your tongue when you are extremely thirsty and see if you experience any relief. Now imagine a man engulfed in flames and the fire department tosses one drop of water at him to cool him down. Make sense to you? I did not think so. We are reading a parable.
Abraham's bosom was discussed in early church history as a TRADITION of the Pharisees and nothing from Old Testament teaching. Jesus was using the Pharisees own tradition against them IN A PARABLE. It was not a literal place but something the Pharisees whipped up. Pharisees were known for teaching their “traditions” and "commandments of men." It amazes me how religious people are still accepting the tradition of the Pharisees as they talk just like the Pharisees did. They too promote the “commandments of men” as most legalistic churches do. Do we still believe Jewish fables? Is your current belief of Luke 16 based on one?
It is clear that such a belief (Abraham's Bosom) NEVER originated from scripture. Just ask anyone, "Where do we find Abraham's Bosom ever taught in the OT?” The answers they will give you is how traditions are made. You will see them give you answers that sound acceptable but will come from no verses of scripture at all. Josephus confirms the tradition (belief of two compartments in hades, one punishing and the other rewarding) of the Pharisees as Josephus was a Pharisee who lived during the time Israel was destroyed in 70ad. Here is what we have concerning the Pharisees:
They (Pharisees) held strenuously to a belief in the existence of good and evil angels, and to the expectation of a Messiah; and they cherished the hope that the dead, after a preliminary experience either of reward or of penalty in Hades, would be recalled to life by him, and be requited each according to his individual deeds(Strong’s Concordance).
Where did such a belief as that concerning hades come from as presented in Luke 16? Not the OT, but the tradition of the Pharisees. Luke 16 is how religion still teaches the erroneous compartmental theory of hades never taught before except in the tradition of the Pharisees. Notice the reward or punishing in hades. It was not a belief that one goes to the good side of hades for believing the gospel as we are dealing with a reward. The rich man was punished and the poor man rewarded. Even the poor man was not said to be a believer of the gospel. He merely was comforted for his having bad things in life. It was a parable.
Traditions of the Pharisees still live on today. The tradition of the Pharisees evolved today into how unbelievers go from hades to another form of some hell called the Lake of Fire. However, it says that death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. It was the DEAD standing (figuratively) before God. No dead person was talking, reasoning, fearing, questioning, asking for a drop of water, or doing a single thing when cast into this lake of fire that was not a literal fire. The lake of fire was not the sun, under the earth, or in a volcano as some religious people claim. Revelation 20 does not say, “Mt. Vesuvius is the lake of fire.” It does not say, “The Sun is the lake of fire.” It does not say, “The core of the earth is the lake of fire.” It does say, “This IS the second death” as it clearly was not a literal fire. It was figurative as it represented a death to the first death. It was the death of death. It ended the old and brought in the new as chapter 21 begins sharing.
Here is some more information on Abraham’s bosom. Be sure to ask those who teach the tradition of the Pharisees where the teaching of “Abraham’s Bosom” originated. Then be sure to tell them where Abraham’s bosom can be found as you direct them to the Talmud. Read the following:
In the Talmud we have those very traditions gathered up which the Lord refers to in His condemnation. Many are there preserved which were current in our Lord's day. We can thus find out exactly what these popular traditions were. "Paradise", "The carrying away by angels", "Abraham's bosom", etc., were the popular expressions constantly used. Christ was not the first who used these phrases, but He used the language of the Pharisees, turning it against them.
Take a few examples from the Talmud:
(1) In Kiddushin (Treatise on Betrothal), fol. 72, there is quoted from Juchasin, fol. 75, 2, a long story about what Levi said of Rabbi Judah: "This day he sits in Abraham's bosom", i.e. the day he died.
Take a few examples from the Talmud:
(1) In Kiddushin (Treatise on Betrothal), fol. 72, there is quoted from Juchasin, fol. 75, 2, a long story about what Levi said of Rabbi Judah: "This day he sits in Abraham's bosom", i.e. the day he died.
There is a difference here between the Jerusalem and the Babylonian Talmuds the former says Rabbi Judah was "carried by angels"; the latter says that he was "placed in Abraham's bosom".
Here we have again the Pharisees' tradition as used against them by our Lord.
Here we have again the Pharisees' tradition as used against them by our Lord.
The above was taken from:
http://levendwater.org/books/the_rich_man_and_lazarus/page0017.htm
Bullinger made this comment about Luke 16 and why he believes it was not called a parable:
It is not called a parable because it cites a notable example of the Pharisee's tradition which had been brought from Babylon
What is the Talmud? Here is one definition:
Is the literature that Jesus was familiar with in his early years yet in existence in the world? Is it possible for us to get at it? Can we ourselves review the ideas, the statements, the modes of reasoning and thinking, on moral and religious subjects, which were current in his time, and must have been [resolved] by him during those silent thirty years when he was pondering his future mission? To such inquiries the learned class of Jewish rabbis answer by holding up the Talmud. Here, say they, is the source from whence Jesus of Nazareth drew the teaching which enabled him to revolutionize the world; and the question becomes, therefore, an interesting one to every Christian, What is the Talmud? …
The Talmud, then, is the written form of that which, in the time of Jesus, was called the TRADITIONS of the Elders, and to which he makes frequent allusions. (Rabbi Michael L. Rodkinson)
I hope that makes it abundantly clear that we are dealing with a parable and that parable in Luke 16 was against Pharisees and their tradition nonsense. They were the ones who believed their “soul” would go to be with Abraham and those (the poor) they despised would be turned away but Jesus twisted their story around. To the Pharisees, the poor were cursed by God. However, it was the poor that actually would listen to God and not the rich.
Again, where did such a belief as that concerning hades come from as presented in Luke 16? Not the OT, but the tradition of the Pharisees.
Yes, I did blog about Luke 16:19-31. I copied and pasted my brief comments on Luke 16 below for you to read below. I do not give the spiritual meaning but I chose to argue some interesting points made within the fictional story:
1st, Does Luke 16 teach a literal hell after death? Only if you refuse to investigate our religious traditional nonsense we grew up hearing. The writings of Josephus proves that Luke 16 was the belief of many Pharisees, as it NEVER came from scripture, and that was why the Pharisees did not challenge this hades after-life belief that you can find NOWHERE in the bible. Jesus was using the Pharisees belief of "hades" (not Gehenna) against them.
Luke 16 was a parable, but religion attempts to use two silly arguments to prove that it was not a parable but instead some literal account. Religion will quote the beginning of verse 19, “There was a certain rich man” as proof of a real person, but that is common with other parables of Jesus to begin that way (see Matthew 21:33; Luke 7:41; Luke 16:1). It can mean an actual person, but it was not uncommon to be used in parables too. Jesus could use an actual person as an example in a parable, as we do it all the time. The question is whether Luke 16 was an actual event. The overwhelming evidence is that Jesus shared enough information for us to know that this was simply a parable being used against the religious leaders. Show me "Abraham's Bosom" in the afterlife one time in the entire OT??? It was the tradition of the Pharisees and Jesus was using their own man-made beliefs against them.
Religion also says that it cannot be a parable because Jesus quotes Lazarus and Abraham who are actual people. First of all, who here is looking to go to Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22)?? Has anyone told you that when you die is to go and be with Abraham? No, they twist it to mean a place of rest and comfort only. The Pharisees believed they would be with him and probably explains why they cry out to him for mercy in the passage calling him their father. Again, this was a belief of the Pharisees, and not a teaching of scripture. Nobody is going to Abraham’s bosom, and nobody in the OT was said to go there at death. Jesus does quote Lazarus, but He quotes him as a rebuke to the religious leaders standing there, as I will explain shortly.
The parable begins with a certain man dressed in fine purple linen who also had 5 brothers. Who do you suppose that was? It was the high priest Caiaphas who was alive and well when Jesus shared this parable but Jesus preached it in the past tense (there "was" a certain man) as it was a parable.
Again, he wore "fine purple linen." The Old Testament shares that the high priest wore fine purple linen, as even the Wikipedia recognizes that:Priestly sash (Hebrew avnet) (sash): that of the High Priest was of fine linen with "embroidered work" in blue and purple and scarlet (Exodus 28:39, 39:29); those worn by the priests were of white, twined linen.
Also, it says that this man in fine purple linen had 5 brothers (Luke 16:28). Caiaphas was known to have 5 brothers, as Josephus told us who they all were. It too is listed in Wikipedia as you can look that up.
Was Caiaphas dead? No, he was still alive, but this so called “non-parable” by our traditionalists fails to see that the story has these men as ALREADY DEAD. It was a parable rebuking the religious leaders.
Notice that Jesus mentions Lazarus, and then says in verse 30 because the rich man asked Lazarus to be sent to warn his brothers:
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
What was behind that verse? Think about it for a moment. Who was a man Jesus raised from the dead in front of the religious leaders? It was Lazarus, but traditionalists to get around that will tell you that Lazarus was a common name, so it could have been anyone. Yeah, what a coincidence that Jesus used the very name in this parable that was raised from the dead before the religious leaders eyes He was addressing. Did Caiaphas and others later believe as a result of Lazarus being raised from the dead? NO! It was because Lazarus being raised that Caiaphas and the other religious leaders sought to put Jesus and Lazarus to death. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees that if one were raised from the dead (as Lazarus was), they still would not believe and they did not.
One last comment concerning Luke 16. Do you really think that if one were frying in hell forever would ask for one drop of water? Burn your hand in a flame and see how much relief you would feel from a single drop of water. Allow yourself to be extremely thirsty and place one drop of water upon your tongue and let me know how much relief that provided. Religion throws out common sense for nonsense and expects you to just believe it.
This was clearly a parable, as Jesus was hammering the religious leaders and their unbelief by using their own fable against them. Now religion has taken Luke 16 and twisted it into some horrific true story happening to every unbeliever today, as they supposedly are in utter agony craving a single drop of water. Sick and twisted religion!
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Random Thoughts I like to Share
The Bible tells us to love out of a pure heart and a good conscience. A good conscience is one freed from a sin conscience. It is one who enjoys the forgiveness of sins. It is one who enjoys justification from all things. It is no longer feeling guilty for sins (Hebrews 10:2). It is the realization that God is your friend and never will impute sin again (2nd Cor. 5:19). It comes from a heart not divided.
One thing I discovered among many professing believers is their gaze is upon God and then upon what they believe is wrong with them. Such a heart will only experience feelings of alienation, cold and callousness, and frustration. Such a heart will not know love because their minds are veiled through the darkness of religion.
Why is it that we refuse to accept our forgiveness? God’s grace was revealed to all and yet we do not see forgiveness as part of that grace given. We still think we have to earn it by believing. Instead of receiving what was already given is when people try to receive it as a reward (the reward for believing). This is where religion gets it backwards. Instead of believing they have is them believing to get. Instead of believing what is already true is then trying to believe to get God to make it true. They have to jump a hurdle in order to enjoy something that was already theirs. Once they decide a hurdle (believing/repenting/performance) is what God requires then they will wonder if they jumped the hurdle high enough.
I see so many religious people refuse to accept forgiveness already granted until they are convinced that they have done that “believing,” and have seen the evidence for that believing in works. Only then will such a person believe he/she was forgiven as a reward for their believing. However, they are back in the mire the moment they sin. They do not have a good conscience but one focused in darkness. It is a conscience that seeks to draw comfort from performance. It is a conscience that sees sin as alive and well in their lives. Such a conscience is what Hebrews calls and “evil conscience.” The reason they struggle with feelings (guilt, shame, alienation) is because their conscience is evil. They seek to self-soothe through doubling their efforts to be more obedient and they listen to music they hope will comfort their hearts. They are like Saul who calls upon David to play his harp so that the evil spirit will depart. This “spirit” lives among those fearful that the Spirit of God has left them. It is emotionally and psychologically draining to such religious people.
***The evil spirit was not a literal demon torturing Saul. It refers to the spirit that came over him. It refers to a disposition or attitude. Paul spoke about the “spirit” among the Corinthians that was not a literal spirit being. I doubt playing harps will cause a demon to go running for the hills but the spirit that Saul had was soothed by the playing of the harp as that was what that passage was about where such a disposition would leave him. This is what religious people do today.
An evil heart of unbelief is one that draws a person away from Christ back to the sacrificial system in Hebrews. An evil heart of unbelief is not a return to a wanton lifestyle of sinful pleasures. An evil heart of unbelief refuses what Christ had accomplished and will seek to remedy the situation the old way (old covenant). It was men and women trodden underfoot the Son of God. It was them figuratively stomping on the new covenant to cross over Him to get back to the old system. It was them believing that Christ was not the once for all sacrifice. It was them returning to the repentance of dead things (Levitical sacrificial system) that was impossible to renew again. It was them failing to realize that there remains no more sacrifice for sins as Jesus was the once for all sacrifice.
I see the evil heart of unbelief demonstrated by so many religious people. They refuse to accept the immediate comfort and joys of the gospel. They refuse to drink until everything they imagine a true believer to be like (behavior, feelings, etc.,) has been fulfilled. They claim that they have died to the Law but their religious endeavors to find peace and assurance betrays them.
The mind that is trying to find relief is a mind refusing the way God gives it. It is already given, so the person who attempts to try is one who refuses to accept what to them is too easy and too good to be true. They are blind. It is them floating in the middle of the ocean wondering what ocean water feels like. Their eyes are closed. The sunlight is shining all around them but they stand there wondering, “Will the sun ever shine its rays upon me?”
The religious person will ask, “Have I believed?” Those who ask such questions never draw any assurance from it because the question they ask shows they seek to draw comfort and assurance from within. However, to discover an already reality is when the good conscience will ask, “What is there for me to believe?” The reply back is, “You are loved. You are accepted. You are the praise of my glory. You are forgiven. You are reconciled.” It is immediately received because that person knows it is impossible for God to lie. An evil heart of unbelief will reject such things until they are convinced that they adequately done certain things first in order to receive such things from God.
A heart that refuses to believe they are forgiven remains in darkness. Darkness is the realm of lies. Darkness is what prevents the heart from beholding love. It robs a person of confidence in God. This is what we read about in Hebrews as some were casting off their confidence and returning to the sacrificial system soon to be destroyed.
Condemnation is a person who lacks confidence in Christ. Condemnation is a hiding from the light. It is the belief of a lie. It is not life and peace in the Spirit. It is a miserable religious life where you seek to wash the outward cup but inwardly remain full of dead men bones. It is the trying to clean that cup further with the hope that the inward cup will be filled with refreshing water of peace, joy, love, and acceptance.
We are to enjoy what is already ours. Condemnation is a refusal of accepting what is ours. Condemnation is why people feel distant and alienated from God. The alienation only exists within their mindset as it is not real. These people long to feel the embrace of God’s love but do not even know that God is embracing them now with His love that never fails.
What is condemnation? It is the voice that says, “Depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” It comes from those who cry, “Lord, Lord, have I not done MANY wonderful works?” It is the cleaning of that cup that causes condemnation. Experiencing ‘no condemnation’ is never found in your performance. The very reason you feel condemned hearing the voice saying, “depart you worker of iniquity” is because your mindset is upon your performance.
An evil conscience is a sin conscience. A sin conscience is a seared conscience. A seared conscience is one who sees everything as impure. Have your minds sprinkled with water from an evil conscience.
Freedom from condemnation is to hear the voice of Grace saying, “Your sins are forgiven.” The Lamb of God HAS had taken away the sin of the world. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. To try and do anything to get forgiven is to hear the voice, “Depart from me, you who work iniquity.” How much longer will you keep allowing the voice of condemnation to torment you? Will you keep playing the role of Saul and simply do things to bring temporary results? How long will you keep listening to the religious harp that has no lasting effects? Playing that harp continuously is exhausting. God's radio station is singing your praise continually commercial free!
A person who does not believe they are forgiven abides in darkness. They live in the realm of lies. They are hurting emotionally right now. Many of them refuse to let go of the very things causing their pain. Love casts out fear but they hold on to their insecurities. They fear that letting go of their insecurities could result in being deceived or ruined in the end. Religion has instilled this fear into them. They hold onto the view that God is not pleased with them. They hold on to their religious hell beliefs that scare them. They hold on to this belief that God cannot forgive them until they stop sinning. They refuse to believe that God would accept them as they are. They refuse to believe they are the sons or daughters God always wanted. They refuse to stop sowing on religious fig leaves to hopefully cover what they believe is shame in the eyes of God.
These poor souls are those that despise the riches of the goodness of God where they know not that it is the goodness of God that leads them to a new mindset. They can finally put off the old man mindset and be robed in light. Light is truth. Light shouts everything that is right and true about you. It is beholding your true image that is created after the image of Him in righteousness and true holiness.
The religious mind fears judgment believing God will unleash a fury upon them for their sad performance. Judgment in the bible is making things right. David loved the judgment of God. The religious mind sees everything from an evil conscience point of view, so they tremble whenever they hear the word "judgment." They seek to hide in the bushes at the very thought of hearing the voice of God as did Adam and Eve. What a sad way to live. What is sadder is the fact that they bid people to come and believe and join their mire clan. Their mire is fear and fear controls them.
Romans 1:18 brings joy to my heart:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
The verse reveals His love of us. The Father and His wrath is much like the mother defending her infant from an attacker. Her wrath (love in action) is demonstrated by attacking the very thing that seeks to hurt her baby. God’s wrath already revealed demonstrated that He attacked the very thing that sought to hurt us. He took care of sin with finality, “It is finished!” Behold the Lamb of God that has taken away the sin of the world. God is reconciled to the WORLD. God is not imputing sin to the WORLD.
The gospel reveals the love of God but religion obscures it with conditions and threats. The religious person does not behold the love of God because they are still trying to cross bridges, climb mountains, and jump hurdles to get it. Again, they are floating in the middle of an ocean wondering what an ocean feels and looks like.
Instead of a person drawing comfort from the love of God is them trying to draw comfort from their believing the love of God. It is as though they are saying, “OK God, here is my believing, so why are you hiding your love from me when I am doing what you ask?” They are the ones who say, “OK God, here is my believing, so why do I not feel accepted by you?” Some eventually give up saying, “This believing thing does not work.” Instead of them believing a reality is them trying to believe to be a part of a reality. It is not, "Believe and God will love you" but "You are loved already" and we believe. Believing is simply how we enjoy what is already ours. If a person does not believe then clearly they do not enjoy what is already theirs.
God does not withhold forgiveness. You are as forgiven today as you were the day you were born into this world. If God withholds forgiveness until you believe then how is that forgiveness? I think we are all capable of such conditional forgiveness as that religious “god” but the true God and His forgiveness goes far beyond that.
Do you believe God is saying to you, “Withhold forgiveness from your enemies until they accept it”? No, you forgive your enemies but the fact that they do not believe you or accept your forgiveness does not make them any less forgiven. If your enemies come to believe and accept your forgiveness does not make them any more forgiven. Forgiveness is when enemies turn friends. God is reconciled to you and it is believing that is how we are reconciled back. As long as we think God is our enemy then we will be trying to do whatever possible to offer peace offerings (works, confessions, religious duties) to get Him to somehow like us.
If God tells you to forgive your enemies then is God telling us to do something He does not do Himself? Forgive those that spitefully use you is not something God does Himself?
When God tells us to forgive our enemies then does that forgiveness have a time limit on it? Is death the time limit when God’s forgiveness runs out? Does that mean that when we go to be with the Lord that our forgiveness for our enemies runs out too? In the presence of the Lord, can I hold a wrong against a man again because they have died without accepting my forgiveness as the religious god does? I have forgiven someone who wronged me on this planet but that man died refusing to accept my forgiveness so does that mean I can hold to bitterness and unforgiveness again? If you say no then I am better than your god who can’t.
If a person can die and be "unforgiven" by God then God is not a forgiving being. He tells us to forgive in the physical realm but He cannot do it Himself in the spiritual realm??? How can it be forgiveness if it has a time limit? What do you think about the person who says they forgive you and will seem fine for a while but later brings up in anger the very thing they claimed to have forgiven you? Would you call that forgiveness? Do not claim your "god" is a forgiving god when his forgiveness runs out.
How you perceive God and His forgiveness is often how you forgive others. Do you hold grudges? Do you find it hard to forgive? Do you find that giving the silent treatment to people who hurt or wronged you as a way to punish them? Have you withheld forgiveness as a way of manipulating a person to feel guilty and finally doing what you hope they would do to gain your forgiveness? Now ask yourself, "Do I see myself in God? Does God treat me similarly to the way I treat others? Do I struggle to believe He forgives me? Do I feel He withholds love from me and gives me the silent treatment when I sin? Do I find myself doing things to hopefully motivate God into blessing me again?"
If you are not enjoying forgiveness of sins today then it is because you are trying to earn it. If you feel condemned today then you are trying to perform your way out of condemnation. If you are not aware of God’s love today then you are trying to be loved. If you do not believe you are accepted today then your mindset is upon performing to be accepted.
The hardest thing for us to accept is that we are accepted. When Adam sinned is when God imputed sin. It was God who “chose” to impute sin. People fail to see that after the death of Jesus Christ, God “chose” to impute sin no longer. People are too busy judging their lives. People are too busy trying to change things about themselves. People are too busy listening to religious harps to soothe their hearts after messing up. People are so busy with religious duties that they no longer see that God is not beholding them in sin at all. He is well-pleased but the religious mindset says, "No, He is very angry and displeased."
Think about the problem sins you have right now. Have they gone away after all the efforts you made? No, because that is what you do. You can either accept that about yourself or simply get your eyes off the tree of knowledge of good and evil or you can continue to think that you need to be more like God as Adam did and live in shame. The evil heart of unbelief is a sin conscience (guilty conscience). A sin conscience is what is causing you to do things to “feel” loved, accepted, and forgiven. A good conscience and a pure heart is one who ceases from efforts and realizes that God loves them and has accepted them right where they are at and with no conditions of, “Improve the performance.” You are trying to stop what you see is wrong with you when repeated years of failure has yet to get it into your head that you cannot stop. It is OK to say, "What I view as chaos in my life is OK." God is not upset about your chaos. God is not imputing your chaos. God has accepted you in your chaos.
Imagine everything you do every day is approved by God. If you say that is not true or impossible then you live in the realm of condemnation/darkness. You just proved to yourself that your approval is based on performance. The evil conscience will reply, “Are you saying that I can commit murder and adultery and God’s approval is upon me?” Your good behavior does not make His righteousness that robes you any better, and your evil deeds cannot make His robe of righteousness any worse. Your good deeds cannot make you more forgiven and your evil deeds cannot make you less forgiven.
It is the freedom from condemnation that opens the eyes to see the rays of love shining upon the person. Law drives a person to fear but love drives out fear. Love needs no boundaries set. Love forgives because it springs from already forgiveness. Love is the fulfilling of the Law. Love tells us not to steal, kill, or commit adultery. Condemnation is what leads to such evil things. Yes, a believer can do such things that should not be named among us once but such actions are committed and often repeatedly by those who live feeling rejected or shorted.
We are to walk in love. Love replaces all insecurities we have. The gospel is the message of security. The religious gospel preaches insecurities. Insecurity will blind a person. It will cause a person to feel as though they never measure up. They will always feel unworthy. They will never see their value. They never will see that everything they do every day is approved by God because condemnation rules their hearts. Their sin conscience keeps them in the realm of lies. They refuse to accept love, acceptance, and forgiveness until they see signs in their performance or feelings. They are refusing to believe they are breathing air until they can see air. Air surrounds them and fills their lungs. Love surrounds us and fills our being but people refuse to believe that until they can see it somehow.
The rays of love will be visible the moment the lies of condemnation are removed. The moment you realize that you are the praise of His glory and that you are the son or daughter He always wanted is when darkness will flee from your life. Religious harps are no longer needed because the evil spirit that once plagued you is gone.
You might say, “I smoke cigarettes.” You are approved and accepted by God. You might say, “I view porn.” You are approved and accepted by God. You might say, “I lie a lot.” You are approved by God. You might say, “I had an abortion.” You are approved and accepted by God. You might say, “I turned from God and called Him horrible names.” You are approved and accepted by God.
Condemnation is what makes you say, “I do this and that” as it is a focus upon self. A focus upon this and that you do is a mindset upon Law/flesh. This is why you are trying not to do things in order for God to approve and accept you.
If your toddler draws a picture that is a bunch of scribbles then do you rip it up and ask them to start again? Stop viewing your life as a picture that God views as scribbles where He would like to rip it up and have you start again. Your toddlers picture of scribbles is precious to you and that mess you perceive yourself to be is precious to God. You simply do not realize that you were never a scribble He made but a masterpiece as He has designed you flawlessly after the image of Him in righteousness and true holiness. That is who you are no matter what you do or not do.
Everything you do every moment of the day is to know that you are approved and accepted by God. You are not scribbling but rather are a perfect reflection of Him. Why do I say that? Because the moment you stop the condemnation is when your life will begin reflecting the true person you are in His sight. Fear departs. Anxieties go away. Those feelings of distance/alienation between you and the Father turns into a tight embrace of love, kisses upon the neck, and tears of joy.
Who is he that condemns when Christ died? Who can separate you from His love? God is not imputing your sins so why are you? Enjoy life knowing that you are not a spiritual birth defect. Enjoy life with the full realization that you are loved, cherished, and perfected forever.
You can throw out your religious harp of performance that offers no lasting relief.
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What about Adolf Hitler?
I have been asked about the fate of Adolf Hitler before but I have received two emails within a month asking where I think he is spending eternity.
Religious person: “Romans 6:23 states that the wages of sin is death. I believe that a man who dies in unbelief must pay those wages in a place called hell forever being eternally separated from God. Wages is what you earn for your sins, so the answer is “yes” to your question.”
Grace believer: “Yes, if Hitler were alive today and asked you, “What must I do to go to hell?” What would be your reply?”
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
I have read a website claiming that Hitler was responsible for the death of nearly 6 million Jews. Not sure if that is correct but we can all agree that many died under his regime. The question I am asked reveals how Hitler’s “behavior” is what is behind those fears many have when contemplating standing before God based on how they too have performed. Their thinking is, “Hitler was just a pure evil man but at least I am trying to do what I believe is right in the eyes of God.” It is the, “I thank thee God that I am not like Hitler” (Pharisee/publican). However, the fear of bad behavior is rooted deep within them. Nobody asks, "What about Fred Johnson who nobody knew in 1683?"
Those asking about the eternal fate of Hitler are often those who are works oriented. It almost never fails that those who ask the question are those who doubt their salvation based on their behavior. I am not saying that the question is bad because Hitler was a lunatic from our perspective but the point I was making was merely an observation.
I have seen Universalists claim that Hitler is in heaven and have seen hellfire believers ranting how God would be unjust to simply forgive such a murderous man who died unrepentant. One side claims that God would be unjust to punish a man billions upon billions of years and the other side claims that God would be unjust to stop punishing Hitler at any time.
In this blog, I would like to point out the contradictions I hear in religion concerning Hitler before I give my answer as to what I believe is the fate of Adolf Hitler. I am going to attempt to expose the contradictions below in a form of a conversation between a religious person and a grace believer. I am not going to spend much time refuting the religious person but for you to simply listen to the typical responses one gives that is a bunch of contradictory nonsense. I know the religious person will read an answer that is not the answer he/she would give and will shout, "Misrepresentation! Straw man! That is not what we believe!" Sorry, I cannot answer for every religion out there in this blog but I will share the common one given.
Grace believer: “Could Hitler have gone to heaven?”
Religious person: “Of course! If Hitler repented and asked Jesus to save him then he would have gone to heaven.”
Grace believer: “You do realize that he killed nearly 6 million Jews, so God would simply forgive him and save him if he repented and trusted Christ?”
Religious person: “Yes, the bible promises life to those who believe.”
Grace believer: “You are saying that all the murders Hitler committed would be forgiven and such a lifestyle as his could never have prevented God from saving him?”
Religious person: “Correct.”
Grace believer: “The only sin that would have kept Hitler from going to heaven was unbelief?”
Religious person: “Correct.”
Grace believer: “So Jesus died for all the sins of Hitler but not the sin of unbelief? Murdering 6 million people could not prevent forgiveness and heaven but only one sin called unbelief? Your reasoning on this matter seems a bit odd to me. To me, I am comparing what you are saying to that of murder and smoking cigarettes. Murder will not prevent you from heaven but smoking a cigarette will. It seems to me that murder would carry the eternal death sentence more so than unbelief (smoking a cigarette) would.”
Religious person: “God takes unbelief very seriously. I believe if Hitler died in unbelief then he would also be punished for his crimes of murder. If he were a believer then he would not be murdering people.”
Grace believer: “The bible says that if you are a believer then you will not be murdering people? I see believers struggling with all sorts of sins but murder is one sin you would not do? Why only murder is something they could not commit? Seems God should take away every sin and not prevent only you from committing the one. David and others in the bible need to hear that message because they murdered.
I know you also claim that Jesus paid the sin debt of every person that ever lived, so how does Hitler pay for the sins already paid in some place you call hell? Do you have a verse that says that if one dies in unbelief is to pay for his/her other sins already paid forever?”
Religious person: “Romans 6:23 states that the wages of sin is death. I believe that a man who dies in unbelief must pay those wages in a place called hell forever being eternally separated from God. Wages is what you earn for your sins, so the answer is “yes” to your question.”
Grace believer: “It is interesting how you claim Romans 6:23 is hellfire when Paul never once preached on hell. Let me ask you, if the wages of sin were death then did Jesus death pay sins wages?”
Religious person: “Of course, as that is what we believe and teach.”
Grace believer: “That is not what you said and that is why I needed clarification as you added words to Romans 6:23 that came from nowhere. If the wages of sin were eternal separation from God in a place called hell then how did Jesus pay sins wages when He was in the grave only 3 days? It appears that a person in your hell is paying a wage Jesus clearly never paid.”
Religious person: “Jesus was God and 3 days in hell was equivalent to an eternity. Jesus never knew separation from the Father. The fact that Jesus was God meant that He could fully absorb the wrath of God that no mere mortal could do. Mankind would have to spend eternity absorbing what Jesus absorbed in 3 days.”
Grace believer: “3 days to absorb God's wrath then clearly He is not as powerful as we once thought because it took Him 72 hours to absorb wrath but that made up teaching sounds silly when you think about it. You now have for the second time put words into scripture that are not even there and you did it without batting an eye. There is nothing in scripture where one is said he/she is required to spend forever absorbing an eternity of wrath. It is a bit strange to even consider that a 16 year old boy who rejected the gospel needs to absorb wrath billions upon billions of years for 16 years of life. If the punishment was eternal separation as you claim then Jesus never paid sins wages. All of those added ideas you came up with are simply a way of ignoring the obvious contradiction. Imagine a man charged for murder and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. However, another man with an impeccable life who never wronged anyone asked the judge if he could go to prison and serve the murderers sentence on his behalf, and the judge agreed. However, 3 days later the man was released from prison. When the judge was questioned as to why the man was released is when the judge replied, “He never knew murder or any crime, so 3 days in prison was equivalent to a lifetime in prison.
The other thing that amazes me is that many religious people claim that Jesus went to hell (Hades) but never at any time cried, “Have mercy upon me…dip your finger in water and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame." Why was Jesus never frying in this hell of yours if that frying represented sins wages supposedly paid in 3 days? How was that absorbing wrath when He appeared to be an observer by your beliefs? Not sure how standing off at a distance from those frying and being tormented in flames and preaching a message of, “Hey, it’s me! Let me share a glorious message of which will be of no benefit to any of you. You will be resurrected one day to only fry again.”
Religious person: “I believe the “spirits” that Jesus preached to were fallen angels and unbelievers. The message would have been glorious to those who have died before as believers but of no benefit to those who rejected Him. The fact that Jesus descended into hell was fact He was paying sins wages because hell is where God is not present. He was enduring separation from God. I obviously see Jesus as infinitely greater than you do where 3 days of hell absorbed an eternity of punishment.”
Grace believer: “I see a mere man arguing religion and not scripture. Hades is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew Sheol, and if it is a place of separation then David was confused when he said, “If I make my bed in hell (sheol) thou are there” as that does not sound like separation to me.
Not sure how you see Jesus as infinitely greater because the Jesus you believe cannot forgive sin freely as mine can. Not sure how your Jesus is infinitely greater because a paid bill is a paid bill, and to repay an already paid bill would now be unjust of the person already paid asking to be repaid. Let’s say that I paid for your dinner where everything you eat, drink, and even the tip was fully covered. Now imagine the restaurant going to punish you with life in prison for not paying your dinner bill all because you did not believe it was paid. Imagine the lawyer representing the restaurant said, “This man did not believe his meal was paid for in full so therefore he is guilty as though he never paid for the meal at all. This man simply walked out of the restaurant not believing his bill was paid and we are seeking life in prison for robbing the restaurant of a $36.00 meal that was paid for by another.” Does that not sound ridiculous to you? You are saying that if we do not believe our sins are paid then we have to pay for them ourselves in hell and that is ridiculous. No verse even says that. We have to spend eternity absorbing the wrath you claim your Jesus absorbed in 3 days that no verse even teaches.
You said that if Hitler did not believe then he would have to be punished for the murders he committed. OK, does it make sense for me to say that the dinner I paid for is not really paid for until you believe it is paid for?
Religious person: “The sacrifice of Jesus does no good until you receive it.”
Grace believer: “That’s a bible verse? Forgive me here, but it is you who teaches the bill paid in full view and I want to talk a little more about your contradiction. If a bill has been paid and you do not believe it was paid then how are you then required to pay an already paid for bill? Can you provide a verse and not your religion on this matter? Clearly the man who ate the meal at the restaurant could fear punishment for not having cash on him if he truly believed nobody paid for his meal but it simply would be a lie he was believing and not reality. If he walked out of the restaurant and was arrested then clearly the bill was never paid. Your “Unbelief causes a person to pay his own bill” is contradictory nonsense not from the bible.
The man walking out of the restaurant not believing his bill was paid may think that he got away from a crime because nobody arrested him but the reality is that no crime was committed. The apostle Paul speaks of those who believe the truth versus error. Paul speaks of those who have a darkened understanding, blind, and void of understanding. Their ignorance does not make truth less real. They are living their lives unable to see the already reality, and that would be a fully paid-in-full dinner bill in your case.”
Religious person: “Truth has to be received before you can reap its benefits.”
Grace believer: “Agreed! The man who realizes that his bill was paid immediately reaps the benefits of a delicious dinner and walks out of the restaurant without fear of being stopped. Was Hitler’s bill paid-in-full?
Your view of the death of Jesus is that He is holding a large amount of cash in His wallet and if this man would just believe then Jesus will pay that bill as that would make more sense to what you claim to believe. However, that would make believing a work because you had to do something to get your bill paid and that is exactly what religion does to believing. It is no surprise that so many ask, "Did I believe ENOUGH? Did I believe the right way?”
Religious person: “That is not what I believe. We are saved by NOTHING we do. It is all by the grace of God that anyone is saved.”
Grace believer: “What then did Hitler have to do to go to hell forever?”
Religious person: “Did you mean to say, “Hell forever?”
Grace believer: “Yes, if Hitler were alive today and asked you, “What must I do to go to hell?” What would be your reply?”
Religious person: “I would tell him that he had to do nothing because he would already be on that road to hell anyways.”
Grace believer: “You just got through saying that we do NOTHING to go to heaven but then said that Hitler would have to do NOTHING to go to hell. If we do nothing to go to heaven and we do nothing to go to hell then we have a problem.”
Religious person: “No, one must believe to go to heaven.”
Grace believer: “OK, then it is not by NOTHING we do but by SOMETHING we do.”
Religious person: “I do not view believing as a work. You believe the earth is round but do you foolishly call that a work for believing it is round? It is not something you do but rather something you believe. Do you agree?”
Grace believer: “Sure, I believe the earth is round and do not call that a work. Why do I not call that believing a work? First, because the earth being round is a reality whether I believe it or not. Secondly, the earth is not saying to me, “If you believe I am round then you will go to heaven.” This is what I was getting at earlier by saying that one believes the truth and the other a lie. A lie would be the earth is a triangle but one’s ignorance that the earth is round would not change the fact that the earth is round. I do not believe in order for the earth to become round but I believe because the earth is round. A man does not believe his dinner bill is paid to have it paid but believes it was already paid. Not believing does not make it any less paid.
Let me ask you, Could not God just forgive Hitler and save him?”
Religious person: “No, because that would make God unjust.”
Grace believer: “God would be unjust? Would the restaurant be unjust if they made the man pay for the meal that had been already paid? Of course you would agree with that, but would God be unjust when it was Christ who died for the unjust requiring the unjust to pay for what the just already paid on his/her behalf? You already said that 6 million murders would not hinder God from forgiving him. How would God be unjust if He simply forgave Hitler on the merits of Christ?”
Religious person: “God will not force Himself upon anyone. He has given each man a will that chooses heaven or hell. He would be unjust to violate your will. He would not have a person enter heaven who is kicking and screaming against it.”
Grace believer: “I never seen anything remotely close to what you just said in scripture and you seem fine with that. God would not have anyone enter heaven kicking and screaming against it but would have them spend eternity kicking and screaming to get out. Your “god” is insane, contradictory, and cruel. Your god has no heart.
Let me ask you, did the sin of Adam make death/condemnation of all men a possibility in your religion?”
Let me ask you, did the sin of Adam make death/condemnation of all men a possibility in your religion?”
Religious person: “No, Adam brought death to all he represents.”
Grace believer: “Whom he represents? You mean all of humanity?”
Religious person: “Correct.”
Grace believer: “If God is unjust by forgiving us freely in Christ then how is God not unjust for condemning us freely in Adam? You agreed that death/condemnation passed to all. However, I never recall exercising my freewill and choosing death in the Garden, so how is that not unjust but Christ bringing life to the same all (1st Corinthians 15:22) now becomes unjust? I see a contradiction again. You said that God violating our freewill would be unjust but what freewill did you exercise in the Garden? It seems that you love a “god” who justly condemns all mankind based on one sin apart from our freewill but are against a loving God who undid what the first Adam brought to all mankind apart from our freewill as well. This is why I see so much hate and anger spewing from the lips of religious people because they despise and hate a loving and forgiving God as did the Pharisees.”
Religious person: “You were in Adam. Adam represented the human race, so when Adam sinned it was us all sinning with Him. Imagine your great grandfather shot and killed for robbing a bank. You obvious did not rob the bank but you were in him (grandfather) and when he died is when you died too. You could not be born without him.”
Grace believer: “Then why is it so hard to believe the “last Adam” brought life to the same “all” that in Adam died? If you can accept that we all experienced what the first Adam brought apart from our freewill then why can you not accept that the last Adam (Jesus) brought life to the same all apart from our freewill? Why is the one just and the other unjust? Remember, Adam came in the flesh and so did Jesus. Jesus was the undoing of Adam.”
Religious person: “Because Adam represents those in him. Jesus represents those in Him also. To be “in Adam” is to be born on this planet. To be “in Christ” is to be born again spiritually. Adam represented humanity but Jesus Christ represented those who believed in Him.”
Grace believer: “Paul never made such a distinction that you are making. He never said, “All in Adam die, and all in Christ that believed are made alive.” He said, “In Adam all die but in Christ all shall be made alive.” You reversed the order of words and add to it. Anyways, it does not matter because 2nd Corinthians 5:14 tells us that Christ died for ALL. He then said that if one died for ALL then we are ALL dead. Are you going to limit the second half of 2ndCorinthians 5:14 like you do 1st Corinthians 15:22? Look at the verse in 2nd Corinthians 5:
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead
It does not say, “One died for all but those only who believe died with Him.” The “all” for whom Christ died are the same “all” who died in that death. Does one have to believe it first before they die with Him? Obviously not!”
Religious person: “What’s your point?”
Grace believer: “2ndTimothy 2:11 states that if we died with Him then we shall also live with Him. This mirrors 1st Corinthians 15:22 exactly. Again, 2nd Corinthians 5:14 states that we ALL have died with Him and if we have died then we SHALL live also with Him.”
Religious person: “No, it says, “If we died with him” in 2nd Timothy 2:11 and not, “We have all died with him.” You are twisting words and leaving out the conditional word if that Paul used.”
Grace believer: “No, I am not twisting words because the word “if” was used quite often by Paul to stress a reality and never an iffy condition. Look again at 2ndCorinthians 5:14 because it reads, “IF one died for all.” If the word “if” refers to a possibility and not a reality then Jesus did not die for all because Paul used the word “if” concerning his death (if one died for all)? You seemed to have missed that.
I still am trying to figure out how your Jesus is infinitely greater than mine. Here you do not believe the sin of Adam resulted in possible death/condemnation but that it was passed to all men because all men have sinned. However, you believe the last Adam who represented mankind made life a mere possibility. How is your Jesus infinitely greater when the first Adam clearly was more powerful than the last Adam? You made the first Adam more powerful than God Himself. Clearly the first Adam is winning and your “god” is getting royally whipped because your teaching states that more go to hell than heaven.
Your first Adam did not make death a mere possibility but your last Adam made life a mere possibility. Your “god” decided to make death to pass upon all mankind apart from choice (all those who lived after Adam) but then decided to make life to be based on choice and not pass to all. The death passing to all mankind apart from freewill was just but life to pass on all apart from freewill is unjust?? This is a bunch of contradictory nonsense!”
Religious person: “I believe the bible teaches that a person goes to hell for unbelief and sins.”
Grace believer: “Do you have a verse that says you go to hell for unbelief? Look up every verse on Gehenna and notice that it only dealt with works and never the rejection of a death, burial, and resurrection gospel. Gehenna was an earthly experience and not an after death one. Only physical bodies were cast into this Gehenna. Nobody was resurrected to go into this Gehenna. It was also limited to a certain people during a certain time.
Anyways, which hell does the person go to for not believing?”
Religious person: “What do you mean, “Which hell”?”
Grace believer: “Gehenna? Tartaroo? Hades? Lake of fire (never called hell)? When a person dies then which hell do they go?”
Religious person: “Hades and Gehenna are basically the same. Hades is the realm you go but Gehenna is the flames or torment of it. Lake of fire is the ultimate place a person will go to but that is after the white throne judgment.”
Grace believer: “Can you quote a verse that says that or do I have to take for granted that what you are saying is true without evidence? You ramble off answers that you seem to attempt to make flow smoothly with your beliefs apart from scripture. Most things I hear from religious people are made up and added to scripture and it is almost always something terribly negative. For instance, AIDS is judgment from God. 9/11 was judgment from God upon homosexuals and taking prayer out of schools. Hurricane Katrina was judgment from God. The late Robin Williams is burning in hell (Youtube comments). This misconception was seen a lot in the OT and that is why Jesus came to reveal the Father. Many religious people are so full of hate, unforgiveness, and anger that everyone else can see such hate when they talk about God because their speech reveals hatred of people and what they do or not do. How a person views love and acceptance says a lot about the God or god they claim to believe. The speech of a religious person claiming to love God and people deceives them. Preach grace and religious people come and attack it as it reveals their hatred of the light as they prefer darkness. They want to hide from the light. Why? Is a too good to be true God that horrific to them?”
Religious person: “Yes, I can quote a verse showing that hades/Gehenna was distinct. The bible speaks of the rich man in hades but also in flames. The flames was not called Hades but was a part of hades. We know from the OT that hades was not seen as a place of fire but rather Gehenna is the fire of hell. Eventually hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Tartaroo was for fallen angels only.”
Grace believer: “Let me make sure I understand you correctly. When an unbeliever dies is to go to hell (hades) where they will be tormented in hell (Gehenna) and those in hell (Hades/Gehenna) will be tossed into hell (the Lake of Fire) in the end, and I guess those fallen angels in hell (tartaroo) will be joining them in hell (lake of fire) later?” (I have blogged on hell so I will not be sharing anything on the subject here to save time).
Religious person: “You are just trying to mock me and make the bible look ridiculous.”
Grace believer: “No, I am not trying to mock you but expose the contradictory lies you have been hearing and are now parroting to me. Hell is not even a Greek word and that is why it has created so much confusion with the 4 different hells.
You said that hell is eternal separation from God but what does 2nd Corinthians 5:19 mean to you where the world is reconciled? What does Colossians 1:20-21 that teaches those reconciled (world) are the same ones no longer alienated from God mean to you? In fact, the alienation was said to be in our minds. How then is one reconciled and not alienated by God in a place called hell? Are you saying that if they do not believe then God will alienate Himself from them once they die because clearly while they are alive they are reconciled and not alienated by Him right now?”
Religious person: “It refers only to those alive on earth as they are given a chance to believe or reject.”
Grace believer: “Really? I heard only a small percentage of the world has heard of such a gospel of grace. How is everyone given a chance to believe or reject? God came into this world to leave us a book printed in ink with many unverifiable passages where billions upon this planet who never heard will be fried forever because they failed to read this one book printed in ink and failed to interpret it according to the fundamentalist point of view? Some claim that there are 3 things that they must know first and others up to 6 things they must know. How can they make sense of what confused theologians cannot even agree on? These people will die being separated because they believed 5 things God wanted them to know but missed point number 6?”
Religious person: “I believe a person is eternally separated from God because Paul said that they would be destroyed from the “presence of the Lord” and that is preaching separation.”
Grace believer: “Adam and Eve were said to have hid themselves from the “presence of God.” Cain was said to have gone out from the “presence of the Lord” to dwell in some land. Jonah was said to have fled from the “presence of the Lord.” Were they all actually separated from God? You teach that hell is in the afterlife where a person will suffer torment and eternal “separation” but then you also quote Revelation 14:10 as proof for you hell that reads:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb
So how is hell the eternal separation from God but also at the same time in the presence of angels and the Lamb? If you are not going to quote scripture then I really do not want to hear your religion being forced into the verse. Anyways, the above verse was picturing the redemptive Lamb. People twist it to be a literal story but the context shows that it was talking about humans on planet earth and not some after death experience. Religious people say that there is no day or night in hell and yet your proof text says otherwise in verse 11. You now have a hell that is outer darkness and also a place where the sun rises and sets. You have a hell that is eternal separation from God and a hell that is in the presence of God. Any more contradictions you wish to share with me?
Let me ask you, would God be just in forgiving Hitler on the merits of Christ but not those 6 million Jews that Hitler killed?”
Religious person: “Not sure if I fully understand your question. Can you rephrase it please?”
Grace believer: “Hitler killed 6 million Jews. Some were starved to death, others were crammed in into a small room where many died fighting to breathe, others burned alive, others died by poisonous gas, others died from poor conditions leading to disease, and others were shot. Now imagine those 6 million Jews standing before God about to go from hell (hades) to hell (lake of fire) as you claim. However, they happened to look behind God where they saw Hitler laughing, hugging people, and having a great time. Imagine one of the Jewish victims asking God, “Why is Hitler in your heaven and not with us?” God replies, “It is because he asked for forgiveness and accepted Jesus as the full payment for his sins and you did not.” You are calling that just? To me the death of 6 million Jews is being greatly overlooked here and those Jewish victims sure are getting the short end of the stick.
Hitler I guessed realized his dinner was paid-in-full but those 6 million Jews walked out of the restaurant unaware it was paid for and was arrested for robbery???”
Religious person: “It is not by works of righteousness we have done. God did not overlook the 6 million murders Hitler had done but rather looked at the work Jesus had done on His behalf.”
Grace believer: “So God on the merits of Christ forgave Hitler of murdering 6 million Jews but damned the Jewish unbelievers for only one sin called unbelief? We all claim that what Hitler had done was cruel. People were burned alive and we call that cruel, but your “god” is now about to send those who died a cruel death in fire to a fire that never ends? That is just to you? You can see Hitler’s actions as unjust and cruel but your god’s actions as just and righteous?
What do you say about those who never heard the gospel? I am talking about those born in some tribe where missionaries had never been.”
Religious person: “They have nature around them to observe. They can see that there is a God by creation and they have laws written in their own heart that tells them right from wrong. If they choose to do what is wrong then they are damned forever.”
Grace believer: “Before you claimed that Adam’s sin brought condemnation/death to all. You said that all one must do to go to hell is NOTHING. Your misunderstanding of Romans 10 as being applied to an after death experience should clarify that observing nature is not enough because, “How can they believe if they have not heard?” Remember, there is no other name given whereby a man must be saved, so how will a geological god view save anyone?
What do you say about those born mentally challenged?”
Religious person: “God is a good God and will not damn them for their inability to reason what is true or not.”
Grace believer: “Again, you make up answers and quote no scripture. Let me see if I have this correct. You said earlier that if someone asked you what they can do to go to hell where you said the answer is NOTHING as they are already on that road. You now say that those born in some tribe will go to hell the moment they choose what is wrong going against their conscience that is "something" to me. To me, the answer should still be nothing but your answers do constantly change that is typical of religion. So the man born in a tribe that never heard will go to hell because he never heard the gospel but the mentally challenged person who is unable to reason the gospel will go to heaven? One goes to hell for not hearing it and the other goes to heaven for not being able to understand it. Let me see if I am understanding you correctly, you claim that the one man goes to hell the moment he chooses wrong because Adam already brought death to him but the other man cannot go to hell because he is incapable of knowing he does wrong even though death passed down to him as well?
You said that man (ALL MEN) is justly condemned because of one sin done by Adam. Stop changing your answers. This is something I wish people would hear themselves because religion preaches nothing but contradictions.”
Religious person: “I never said that those in a tribe will end up in hell that you accused me of but rather when they choose to go against their conscience is when they will.”
Grace believer: “I answered that and so did you earlier claiming that we all died in grandpa who was shot robbing a bank as we all died in him (mentally challenged or the ignorant), but now you seek to keep tweaking your beliefs to make your contradictions seem plausible. Also, there is not a person alive that has not gone against their conscience? Remember, we have ALL gone astray. We have all sinned. The sin of Adam brought death to all, so how will life now be brought to those in a tribe? Remember, God will not violate their freewill as you claim. They ignorantly live their lives unaware of the condemnation/death that is theirs apart from their freewill and they are hopeless of ever exercising their freewill to somehow “get” (works oriented gospel) into Christ because they never heard of Him.”
Religious person: “I said that God is a good God. I do not have answers to all questions so I leave it in the hands of God as to what will happen to those who never heard.”
Grace believer: “That is a cop out. You are simply looking to get out of the hole you just dug for yourself. In Romans 10, it specifically says that one must call upon the name of the Lord to be saved that you see as an after death experience. It then goes on to question as to how a person can believe if one is not sent. It says, how can they believe if they have not heard?? You said before that Hitler did not believe and that is why he went to hell. What if Hitler never heard the gospel? If ignorance is key to increasing the odds of going to heaven then preaching the gospel is the worst thing we could ever do to people. We should be thankful for abortions, those who die in early age, and those born mentally challenged by what you are teaching. At least they do not have to suffer in the hands of a cruel god.
I said earlier that Jesus died for all and that all died (2nd Corinthians 5:14). I said that those that have died (all) shall live also with Him (2nd Timothy 2:11). Romans 8 states, “Who is He that condemns” when it was Jesus who had died. For whom did Christ die? One died for all (2ndCorinthians 5:14). He is the propitiation for the sins of what? The whole world of believers??? Only religion inserts that nonsense into the verse, and others who do preach “whole world” of every creature preaches only a possible propitiation. How many knees will bow and how many tongues will confess and where is hell in that chapter? Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world except Hitler’s? Jesus is the “savior of the world” except 6 million Jews that died horrifically.
Again, is God really just in allowing Hitler to kill 6 million Jews who go to their eternal death chamber but Hitler gets off the hook with, “Hey! I goofed up! I repent. I believe. Thank you for paying that bill of mine!”? If someone killed your child then would the judge be just if he simply forgave your child’s murderer because he said sorry to the court and asked for forgiveness? Would you think it is just if another man went to prison on behalf of your child's murderer and the murderer is now walking the streets? I only say that because most ignore deep down the part of them that cries, "JUSTICE!" where parents who hear their child's murderer claiming "Salvation in Christ" before being executed angers them. They want them to burn in hell and not be forgiven. What makes matters worse is when religion claims the person murdered is in hell but the man who murdered him/her is in heaven by a simply, "Sorry God...Jesus save me!"
Karla Faye Tucker is one perfect example as she died as a believer and was praising God while being put to death by lethal injection. People were singing outside, "Amazing Grace" but others were shouting and drowning out the song with their shouts of, "Kill the bitch!" It is easy to say that Karla was forgiven according to your religion but what if it was one of your children that she killed? It is only when it personally affects us when our true beliefs comes out. It is so easy for you to believe Hitler would have been forgiven of 6 MILLIONS murders because it does not personally affect you. What if your entire family was murdered by him? I doubt a religion so full of hate and anger would say what you are claiming to me."
Religious person: “Jesus paid for Hitler’s sins and that is why he would be forgiven and saved. Yes, I would expect it to be very difficult for families to forgive him but what is impossible for man is possible for God.”
Grace believer: “He paid for every sin but unbelief according to you. However, John 1:29 states that Jesus had taken away the SIN of the world. What was that SIN? Unbelief.”
Religious person: “It does not say unbelief in John 1:29.”
Grace believer: “The Holy Spirit convicts the world of UNBELIEF according to Jesus. Sure, it does not specifically say, “Unbelief” in John 1:29 but any sin you like to make John 1:29 about will not be found in the verse either. The “sin” (not sins) of the world was unbelief as that was the only sin ever identified to the world. It never said the “sin of the world is murder” but that Jesus will convict the world of sin because “they do not BELIEVE in me” (John 16:8-9), so the sin of the world was unbelief.
If God could not forgive Hitler of unbelief then why does 2nd Corinthians 5:19 state that God is not only reconciled to the WORLD but He also is not imputing sin unto the WORLD? If God is not imputing sin unto the world then how is that not also applied to Hitler?”
Religious person: “Not imputing does not mean forgiveness. It means that God currently is not holding their sins against them giving them a chance to repent and believe.”
Grace believer: “Imputing refers to a reality. It is God reckoning something to be true. You again added words to the bible and did so without twitching. If a man tells you, “I am not imputing any wrong you have done to me but I have not forgiven you for it” then can we say that he is not imputing your wrong doing? If God is not imputing sins only in this life then His forgiveness is only skin deep.”
Religious person: “What do you mean only skin deep?”
Grace believer: “I am referring to the physical existence of man (skin deep) because the moment he/she dies is when God no longer forgives. God’s love fails. The sin of Adam prevails and Christ succumbs to defeat.
I still want to know how your Jesus is significantly greater than mine. Your god says to forgive your enemies but he himself forgives no man until they repent and believe. Your god is saying, “Do as I say and not as I do.” My God however gave me an example to behold. He has forgiven me and now asks me to forgive others because I already have been forgiven (Ephesians 4:32).”
Religious person: “No, Jesus said to forgive to be forgiven.”
Grace believer: “Before Calvary was forgive to be forgiven. It was also do good to be blessed under the Law. After Calvary, it became “forgiving others as Christ had forgiven you” and it also teaches us that we have already been“blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places.”
You say that God would be unjust to forgive someone apart from their freewill, but do you have any support for that in Scripture? Did Jesus get the consent from those nailing Him to the cross if He could pray, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”? He forgave them without their permission. Was Jesus unjust?”
Religious person: “No, there sin was based on ignorance as why Jesus forgave them.”
Grace believer: “Really? So now Jesus forgives people based on their ignorance and yet you teach He damns others for their ignorance (unbelief). You again are contradicting yourself. If these men are going to hell anyways for “nothing they do” then what good was that forgiveness Jesus just offered them for what they have done? Imagine you are about to be hanged for two crimes and the judged said, "I forgive you of your one crime" and then hanged you for the crime. Who cares if your one crime was forgiven because the end result is still the same.
Also, if Jesus forgave them based on ignorance then I should ask you again about those who never heard the gospel because their unbelief is based on ignorance. See how you keep having to change your answers because one thing contradicts another?
Religious person: “OK, where is Hitler today? Are you saying that he was just welcomed into heaven with open arms?”
Grace believer: “No, my purpose was to challenge your belief that he was taken into hell with open arms. You claim that Jesus paid for sin in full but if one does not believe it then they must pay that same debt Jesus already in hell that is a contradiction. Your belief is that Jesus paid for every sin but one even though Jesus was the Lamb of God that has taken away the sin of the world. Much of the confusion comes from the physical salvation being offered to those during a specific time (as was in many specific events in the OT) and twisted into an after death offer of supposed salvation. The point I was getting at was that Jesus was forgiving people who did not even ask for forgiveness and Jesus had done that more than once in His ministry. He forgave the adulterous woman without her asking for it.”
Religious person: “No, the forgiveness had a condition upon it and that was to sin no more. The sin was obviously adultery.”
Grace believer: “No, Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you, go and (the) sin no more.” He did not say, “Sin no more and I will not condemn you.” Jesus told his disciples to forgive 70 times 70. If this woman was caught in adultery again then Jesus still would not be condemning her. Only religious people are the ones doing the condemning.
How about the harlot Jesus freely forgave? Later she came to wash the feet of Jesus with her hair and tears and yet the Pharisee identified her as a present tense harlot (If he were a prophet then He would have known what manner of women this ISthat touches Him). Jesus did not argue and say that she stopped being a harlot but talked about a woman who now loves much. This is something absent in hellfire churches. I only see the condemnation of the Pharisees spewing their hate under the pretense of love. Love is very conditional in religion. Love is very much a part of the gospel that is lacking in the religious gospel full of fear, conditions, and anger.
Was Jesus unjust for forgiving the man of the palsy in Matthew 9:2 without his freewill? The Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy and you accuse God of being unjust for forgiving freely anyone who does not ask for it. What if Hitler was alive during the times of Christ and Jesus said to him, "Your sins that are many are forgiven"? Would you accuse Jesus as did the Pharisees of blasphemy? Would Jesus be unjust in forgiving him?
Religion accuses me of heresy/blasphemy for preaching that the sins of the world are already forgiven. I believe that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world and not a mere possible propitiation. I believe Jesus is the Savior of the world and not a possible savior. I believe Jesus has taken away the sin of the world and not made that possible. I believe God concluded all men in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all (Romans 11:32). I believe the unbelief will not make God’s faithfulness (faith of God) without effect (Romans 3:3). I believe that if we believe not that Jesus will abide faithful (2nd Timothy 2:13). I believe we are justified by the faith OF Christ (faithfulness of Christ). See my blog Saved by His Faithfulness!!!.
I believe all will be made alive in Christ. I believe Christ died for all and that all died, and those that died (all) will live with Him. I believe EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue shall confess the Lord Jesus and there is no hell in that passage where your religion tries to insert into it. I believe God is not imputing sin to the world. I do not believe God’s love can ever fail a person in this life or the next. I believe God has been reconciled to the world. Your god is not significantly greater but significantly subservient to mankind. The first Adam is kicking the last Adam’s rear end. We can love better than your god. We can forgive better than your god. We make more reasonable sense than your god. It is time to question your god of religion because he is the god of this world and he has been lying to you.
It amazes me how people view Hitler as the cruelest man without stopping to think about their own god for a moment. Most people always stop and ask, “What about God in the OT? He seemed so angry and so vindictive. How do we reconcile that to Jesus who said, “If you have seen me then you have seen the Father”? Those who hold the OT was only spoken by God from His own perspective will not care for what I believe. I see the OT many times picturing man’s distortions of God. Jesus corrected things that were said in the OT. Jesus said, “Ye have heard to hate your enemies…but I say to love your enemies and do good to those who spitefully use you.” That is unlike the God talked about in the OT. Jesus did not say that the Father currently was on a vacation from a temper tantrum. Jesus spoke against the "eye for an eye" and that came from Exodus 21:24 (God's law or man's law???). The Pharisees believed God did not hear sinners (one verse often cited is Psalm 66:18 and still quoted by those who claim free grace against sinners) and yet Jesus proved that to be otherwise. God was accused many times of doing horrible things to people in the OT and I see the same things going on today where disease and catastrophes are blamed as being by God. I see death, wars, and ill treatment of others being justified in the name of their god (Christianity and others). Religion always tries to come up with a plausible view of the God of the OT and the Jesus representing the real Him in the NT. They simply try fusing the two together. This why many feel more comfortable around Jesus and not the Father. The Father is viewed by many as foaming at the mouth when it comes to sin and Jesus is the harp playing soothing His deep seated anger for a season because Jesus harp quits playing for you the moment you die in unbelief and God now let's loose the supposed anger fully exhausted at Calvary on you.
Richard Dawkins gave his honest opinion of how the bible in the OT pictures God to him when he wrote:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
The above is exactly the type of “god” I see preached in much of religion today. How people view Revelation and choose to make it literal are failing to see that they have created the same “god” Dawkins speaks about. If Hitler was unjust then what do we do with the “god” people seem to see in Revelation?
Imagine I had the power to resurrect anyone who ever lived and I chose to resurrect Adolf Hitler. The moment I resurrect him is when he begins to kill Jews in barbaric ways. Was I just in raising up Hitler? Could I not say, “I did not raise him to kill anyone?” I am sure you would call me unjust. I would be very cruel if I said that I raised him back to life to kill again and I doubt nobody would disagree with the fact that I am extremely cruel. I wish that they would remember that they agree that I would be the cruelest man because Revelation 20:7-8 reads:
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
According to religion and their view of Satan is now to read the most cruel god in history in the above verses. Here we have Satan resurrected from the prison that held him by God and is now able to deceive nations again (according to religion, bringing as many to hell with him as possible). Why would God raise the greatest spiritual mass murderer alive when we were all doing so great with Satan all bound up? Why would He release him to torment and damn forever those that were not deceived prior to his being released? To answer that by saying that God allows people to freely choose to be deceived is about as idiotic as me saying, “My raising Hitler was just as Jews are free in choosing to hide from him where if they get killed is their own fault. You cannot get around that God would be the greatest Hitler imaginable if the religious literal view of Revelation 20 were true.
If we buy into the literal interpretation of the scriptures then what shall we do with the verse that says that the devil has come to steal, kill, and destroy? Be sure to take man’s skewed view of God and that of man's view of the OT and do the math. Who (God or Satan) killed more than anyone else? In religion, who is the one who brings disease and death upon people? Who teaches that financial disaster is from God? God is the one taught in religion of robbing people of health or even financial wealth as punishment.
Hitler versus the perceived god of scripture…who killed more? The religious god always prevails as being the world's greatest mass murderer. How many children did your Satan have killed? How many did your "god" in the OT have killed? I am talking about infants slaughtered? Yet this murderous god of religion will simply forgive Hitler of 6 million murders if he believes and will fry 6 million victims of Hitler's murderous hands because of their ignorance of a 3 to 6 step religious gospel. I would say that we should not call Hitler cruel at all.”
Religious person: “Are you saying that Hitler is in heaven right now?”
Grace believer: “I do not know what Hitler is doing right now or where exactly he is. I simply know that if the 6 million Jews were not sent to an eternal death chamber but were embraced in a realm of forgiveness, love, and acceptance then how would they be viewing Hitler right now who killed them? We do not carry our unforgiveness, bitterness, and hatred into that realm of pure love and forgiveness. God was compassionate on them and their wrongdoings, so why would it be any less for Hitler? If we are told to forgive our enemies here then why is that not what is experienced in the next life to the fullest extent? Enemies will be subdued (1stCor. 15:25, 28) as they will never harass believers again. They will harass nobody, but they are not said to be "absorbing" anything.
Condemnation is said to be hiding from the light. Those condemned will have no place to hide as the full force of the light (love, truth) will shine in on their darkness. They might cry for the mountains to fall on them but this love will not let them go. How long this will last is something I cannot answer. It is pointless to answer because the Bible is very vague on the next life. I simply will not be arguing the 'paid bill if believed only' nonsense of religion. I simply would view God as unjust for telling me to do something (forgive others) that He Himself cannot do. This means that we can go to heaven and hold our unforgiveness against someone and be angry with them forever because that is what God Himself is doing according to religion. I would view God as unjust who asks me to love my enemies when He cannot do the same. Only religion is quick to cut off the ears of others (Peter) but the God I serve heals. Only man pictures God as bringing disease and death but I see Jesus as the one who healed and gave life. Only mankind withholds forgiveness and clings to bitterness but I see God freely forgiving and doing so without man’s permission. Religion claims that God fully exhausted His wrath upon Jesus at Calvary but I only see man demonstrating his wrath upon Jesus instead. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself as He was never separated from Jesus at any time. Be sure to read ALL of Psalm 22 to see that "My God, why hast thou forsaken me" was concluded that God never had forsaken Him (verse 24). Jesus was not despised by God but man.
I simply know that those who view Hitler’s lifestyle and claim that he is frying forever often have an elevated self-righteous view of themselves (I am a good person and not like him) or they view the gospel from a works oriented perspective and do not even realize it.
If Hitler is currently enjoying forgiveness then who here is going to call God unjust? Jesus died for His enemies as He did not lay down His life to no lasting purpose. I simply believe the last Adam was more powerful than the first. I believe the first Adam brought death to all and the last Adam brought life to the same all. How that quality of life is currently being enjoyed by Hitler is something I cannot answer. Is he permitted to continue on in his ignorance of truth? Is he permitted to continue hiding from the light? These are questions I cannot fully answer. Do I believe love is always extended to Him? Absolutely. God's love and mercy never fails. It is that unconditional love that religious people hate and seek to attack and hide from, and it could be exactly what Hitler hates and is hiding from today because the light exposes what is in the darkness. A believer embraces love but religious people see it as a threat. A believer can stand naked and unashamed but a religious person goes reaching for fig leaves to cover what they perceive as shame.
Remember, Adam sinned and God chose to “impute” sin to the world. The last Adam came and now according to 2nd Corinthians 5:19, God no longer “imputes” sin to the world. If God is no longer imputing sin unto the world then what sin will you expect in the next life imputed to you from this life?
Could God have forgiven Hitler? It would be religious of you to say, "No." Would God be unjust to simply forgive Hitler on the merits of Christ? It would be an attack on Jesus Himself if you were to say no. Would God violate Hitler's freewill? Death passed down was not part of anyone's freewill so to say that life must be by freewill only is silly. To say that God would not allow a person kicking and screaming against entering heaven but would allow a person to keep kicking and screaming to get out of hell is a lame argument that I hear often.
If Hitler right now has beheld God's love and forgiveness then only a religious heart can get mad at that. If you are mad or disgusted by such a thought then maybe it is you kicking and screaming against this heaven. All I know is Hitler is not kicking and screaming in agony as God is not crueler than Hitler was when alive.
Below are good articles to read:
https://supernaturalgospel.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/the-violent-god-of-the-old-testament/
https://supernaturalgospel.wordpress.com/2014/08/18/what-the-heaven-is-hell/
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Blogs here are being deleted. See new blog
You will notice that many blogs are being removed. I do have another website as this blog will be closing soon. I still will be starting a mailing list at my new site that people can join. You can follow me there and also on Facebook I am not open for debates or long dragged out discussions. My blog and email are open only to those who need help with assurance as this is to help save me the amount of time I will be sitting at my computer answering emails.
Keep in mind, my new website has a comment section but I do not receive alerts that someone left a comment (do not know why). If you leave me a comment then know that I may never see it. If it is important then alert me at FB and I will check it out.
I did post a new blog today that would be considered quite controversial. I received an email asking a question about fornication yesterday and this person said that I should blog about it. I thought about it, and decided that if it could help others then it should be posted. It is on a subject that not too many people would think to even question. It is on the subject of fornication. The purpose was to take the fear and guilt from those who struggle (thanks to religion) to things that cause them to be or feel aroused. It is not something that would win religious people over but it should be something we carefully consider:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/fornication
Again, my facebook page is:
https://www.facebook.com/puregracebeliever/
Keep in mind, my new website has a comment section but I do not receive alerts that someone left a comment (do not know why). If you leave me a comment then know that I may never see it. If it is important then alert me at FB and I will check it out.
I did post a new blog today that would be considered quite controversial. I received an email asking a question about fornication yesterday and this person said that I should blog about it. I thought about it, and decided that if it could help others then it should be posted. It is on a subject that not too many people would think to even question. It is on the subject of fornication. The purpose was to take the fear and guilt from those who struggle (thanks to religion) to things that cause them to be or feel aroused. It is not something that would win religious people over but it should be something we carefully consider:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/fornication
Again, my facebook page is:
https://www.facebook.com/puregracebeliever/
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New Website Blog Table of Contents
Below are the blogs that have posted at my new site. I will try to keep this updated whenever a new blog is posted.
2nd Corinthians 13:5 Examine Yourself:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/2nd-corinthians-13-5
Fornication:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/fornication
James 2:14 Faith without works is dead:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/james-2-14-faith-without-works
You are valuable:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/you-are-valuable
Are you lost?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/are-you-lost
The lost always has a home:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/the-lost-always-has-a-home
Struggles to believe:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/struggles-to-believe
Who is he that condemns?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/who-is-he-that-condemns
How I overcame my doubts:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/how-i-overcame-my-doubts
Galatians 5:19-21 Shall not inherit the Kingdom of God:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/galatians-5-19-21-shall-not-inherit-the-kingdom-of-god
1st Corinthians 15:2 Have you believed in vain?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/1st-corinthians-15-2-have-you-believed-in-vain
Titus 2:12 Grace or Law teaches us to deny all manners of ungodliness?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/titus-2-12-grace-or-law-teaches-us
Are you grace or law oriented?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/grace-oriented-or-law-oriented
Is my conscience seared?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/is-my-conscience-seared
Give your life to God?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/give-your-life-to-god
Are habitual lazy Christians saved? 1st Thess. 5:10
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/habitual-lazy-believers-1st-thess-5-10
Explain why I would want your religion?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/explain-why-i-would-want-your-religion
Your gospel works?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/your-gospel-works
Easy or Hard Road. Which road are you on?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/easy-or-hard-road-which-are-you-on
Luke 16:19-31 Rich man in hell (literal or parable)?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/luke-16-19-31-parable-or-literal
2nd Thess. 1:8-9 (everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord); Matthew 25:46; Gehenna:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/2nd-thessalonians-1-8-9-matthew-25-46-gehenna
Hebrews 9:27:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/tag/hebrews%209%3A27
Consider this about Gehenna:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/consider-this-about-gehenna
Gehenna:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/gehenna
The Lake of Fire:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/the-lake-of-fire
Matthew 1:21 Did Jesus come to save us from being habitual sinners?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/matthew-1-21-did-jesus-come-to-save-us-from-habitual-sins
To those in the mire. Stop Climbing and Shoveling:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/climbing-and-shoveling-your-way-out-of-the-mire
I am new to Facebook and you can request my friendship here:
https://www.facebook.com/PureUnadulteratedGrace
If you simply want to follow me on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/puregracebeliever/
2nd Corinthians 13:5 Examine Yourself:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/2nd-corinthians-13-5
Fornication:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/fornication
James 2:14 Faith without works is dead:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/james-2-14-faith-without-works
You are valuable:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/you-are-valuable
Are you lost?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/are-you-lost
The lost always has a home:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/the-lost-always-has-a-home
Struggles to believe:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/struggles-to-believe
Who is he that condemns?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/who-is-he-that-condemns
How I overcame my doubts:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/how-i-overcame-my-doubts
Galatians 5:19-21 Shall not inherit the Kingdom of God:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/galatians-5-19-21-shall-not-inherit-the-kingdom-of-god
1st Corinthians 15:2 Have you believed in vain?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/1st-corinthians-15-2-have-you-believed-in-vain
Titus 2:12 Grace or Law teaches us to deny all manners of ungodliness?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/titus-2-12-grace-or-law-teaches-us
Are you grace or law oriented?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/grace-oriented-or-law-oriented
Is my conscience seared?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/is-my-conscience-seared
Give your life to God?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/give-your-life-to-god
Are habitual lazy Christians saved? 1st Thess. 5:10
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/habitual-lazy-believers-1st-thess-5-10
Explain why I would want your religion?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/explain-why-i-would-want-your-religion
Your gospel works?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/your-gospel-works
Easy or Hard Road. Which road are you on?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/easy-or-hard-road-which-are-you-on
Luke 16:19-31 Rich man in hell (literal or parable)?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/luke-16-19-31-parable-or-literal
2nd Thess. 1:8-9 (everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord); Matthew 25:46; Gehenna:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/2nd-thessalonians-1-8-9-matthew-25-46-gehenna
Hebrews 9:27:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/tag/hebrews%209%3A27
Consider this about Gehenna:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/consider-this-about-gehenna
Gehenna:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/gehenna
The Lake of Fire:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/the-lake-of-fire
Matthew 1:21 Did Jesus come to save us from being habitual sinners?
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/matthew-1-21-did-jesus-come-to-save-us-from-habitual-sins
To those in the mire. Stop Climbing and Shoveling:
http://pureunadulteratedgrace.net/blog/climbing-and-shoveling-your-way-out-of-the-mire
I am new to Facebook and you can request my friendship here:
https://www.facebook.com/PureUnadulteratedGrace
If you simply want to follow me on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/puregracebeliever/
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Some thoughts on Annihilationism
I once held to the teachings of annihilationism. I first believed in a literal hellfire after death but then became a believer in annihilationism after reading a book by Edward William Fudge titled, 'The Fire That Consumes.' I later had problems with the beliefs of annihilationism because I felt I still was reading into verses words not stated.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every kneeshould bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.
7 O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good.
8 The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not.
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. (Psalm 22:27-29).
A parallel in my opinion to the above would be Revelation 5:13:
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
I believe I shared enough. The soul that sins shall die (in Adam all die) as Adam was the living soul but Jesus the quickening spirit. In Adam all die but in Christ all shall be made alive. Christ died for all and all died. If we died with Him then we shall live with Him. If we were planted in the likeness of His death (we all were 2nd Cor. 5:14) then we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection. The bible never conditioned resurrection upon believing it. The resurrection is the direct result of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ on behalf of all.
I was preparing a blog on this subject but when I reached my 28th page on Microsoft Word was when I decided to stop because I only scratched the surface. I decided now to make only a few points in comparison to what I had tried to write concerning my former beliefs as this will be more for the undecided than those convinced of its teachings.
What you are about to read will appear that I am defending Universalism rather than refuting annihilationism. To read this blog as a defense of Universalism will cause some (hellfire lovers or those taught to be closed minded when they hear certain words) to miss out on what I am actually trying to get across here. This blog is to show that there will be a universal resurrection and not a resurrection unto extinction. People will come up with such an opinion of me due to the fact that I do not believe in an after death Gehenna as no verse speaks of an after death Gehenna. To them, since I do not believe in a literal hellfire torture in some after death underworld and do not believe in annihilationism then I must be promoting Universalism. I admit that my beliefs are very universalistic and will obviously show in this blog but I never limit myself to a certain "ism" (Universal-ism...Calvin-ism...Arminian-ism...Lutheran-ism...Catholic-ism, Supralapsarian-ism, and so on) being taught today. This is why people have a hard time boxing me into a specific man-made theological system. If one does box me into a specific "ism" is when they will discover that my beliefs are inconsistent to everything that "ism" promotes. I do not limit myself.
Again, this blog is to show that there will be a universal resurrection and not a resurrection unto annihilation. One does not have to agree with everything I say here but do know that there will be a universal resurrection as "all" will be made alive. You might be thinking "alive where?" but the point of this blog is that they will be made "alive" and not annihilated, so do not miss the forest for the trees. Again, this blog is simply for the undecided.
Again, this blog is to show that there will be a universal resurrection and not a resurrection unto annihilation. One does not have to agree with everything I say here but do know that there will be a universal resurrection as "all" will be made alive. You might be thinking "alive where?" but the point of this blog is that they will be made "alive" and not annihilated, so do not miss the forest for the trees. Again, this blog is simply for the undecided.
Look at 2nd Corinthians 5:14:
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead
Do you believe Christ died for all? If so, do you believe the same “all” are dead? If no, then you have to twist the above verse. The above is universal where "all" have died in that death died for all."If one died for all" (He did) then "were ALL dead."
No verse says that you become dead when you believe. Many read Romans 6 as applying to believers only about being “baptized into His death.” Many Baptists seek to twist Romans 6 to refer to water baptism in a book that contains no water. 2nd Corinthians 5:14 are us baptized into His death. Romans 6:5 reads:
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection
Verse 5 is identical teaching to 2nd Corinthians 5:14-15. Now religion will focus on the word “if” and will tell you that it is conditional, but they forget 2nd Corinthians 5:14, “IF one died for all” that one can clearly see was not a conditional if. People fail to see how Paul often used the word “if” not to stress a condition but a reality. If Christ did die for all then the results is that we all have died. It is clear that “all” have been planted together in the likeness of His death” because to deny that is to deny 2nd Corinthians 5:14. Notice that the same all will be in the “likeness of His resurrection.”
Paul clearly said that “if one died for all, then were ALL dead.” Now look at 2ndTimothy 2:11:
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him
Again, the word “if” is not a conditional statement as 2nd Corinthians 5:14 proved that. Who died with Him? All. Who are those that shall live with Him? The “all” who died in Him. The living with Him does not imply reigning or not being subdued as other scriptures talk about. I am not here to talk about that but only that all will be made alive in Christ. We all share in the benefits of His death and resurrection.
Look at 1st Corinthians 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Religion attempts to change the word order to, “all in Adam die, all in Christ made alive” but the verse does not say that. Religion wants you to think that you have to “get” (works mentality) into Christ and then you shall be made alive. No, “in Adam all die, in Christ the same all are made alive.” You were dead in trespasses and sins but you were quickened according to Ephesians 2.
Did you do any works to get "in Adam"? Did you believe to get "in Adam"? NO! You are twisting and reading into the above verse to say, "We did not get into Adam by our freewill/choice, but we get into Christ by our freewill/choice." People claim you must "get into Christ" because God will not violate your freewill but I never hear those same people complain that we "all" are in Adam (condemned, die) apart from our freewill. Religion does not object to the doom and gloom upon all of the first Adam apart from our choice but hates the obviously second half of the verse that Christ undid what the first Adam had done to the entire human race apart from choice. Religion makes the first half of the verse as unconditionally applying to all mankind but conditions the second half of the verse that reads identical to the verse half of the verse as conditioned upon choice. Whose playing games now?
Did you do any works to get "in Adam"? Did you believe to get "in Adam"? NO! You are twisting and reading into the above verse to say, "We did not get into Adam by our freewill/choice, but we get into Christ by our freewill/choice." People claim you must "get into Christ" because God will not violate your freewill but I never hear those same people complain that we "all" are in Adam (condemned, die) apart from our freewill. Religion does not object to the doom and gloom upon all of the first Adam apart from our choice but hates the obviously second half of the verse that Christ undid what the first Adam had done to the entire human race apart from choice. Religion makes the first half of the verse as unconditionally applying to all mankind but conditions the second half of the verse that reads identical to the verse half of the verse as conditioned upon choice. Whose playing games now?
Religion attempts (especially annihilationists) to make immortality conditioned upon believing rather the result of the resurrection. Death is the only thing said to be destroyed in 1st Corinthians 15:26 and never those "made alive" including the enemies "subdued" (verse 28). However, it clearly says that “all will be made alive.” The "all" made alive is clearly putting on the immortality. In Adam all die, but in Christ all are made alive (immortality). Look at 1stCorinthians 15:45:
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living SOUL; the last Adam was made a quickening SPIRIT.
The above verse is important because annihilationists love to argue, “wages of sin is death…the SOUL that sins shall die” as they argue for extinction of unbelievers. Those verses they quote is exactly what Paul was saying, “In Adam ALL die.” The SOUL that sins shall die according to Ezekiel as that is the Adam who was made a living SOUL, as we die in him. Adam the living "soul" we all die, but in Christ the quickening spirit we all live. Immortality is to all.
Nowhere does scripture state that believing is how our sin wages get paid. Religion makes you believe that Jesus hands you a blank check and all you need to do is sign your name and the check is now yours to enjoy. People fail to see that the name on the check is “ALL” as it was never a blank check.
Comparing 1st Corinthians 15:22 with verse 45 makes it clear that one will made alive and not fried or annihilated. We were dead in sin but we were quickened in Christ. The soul that sins shall die and Adam being the living soul that we are all a part of die, but Christ who is the quickening spirit brings life to the same all.
The "second death" is something that scares many believers. Nowhere do we read anywhere of a second death except in Revelation. People read Revelation as a future literal event in a book full of symbols and figurative language. I have heard a Baptist pastor claim that he had a near death experience and saw the streets of gold. Really? The gold streets were figurative and it also was a city described here on planet earth and not some heaven out yonder.
I believe the new heavens and the new earth were just as figurative as was everything else seen in it. It was no different than any other vision John had that was full of symbols. It is only religion who says, "OK, this part is literal...this part figurative...this part symbolic." This is why nobody agrees on what they read in Revelation.
Try reading Revelation as a revealing of the gospel of grace instead of a full blown nuclear war. Instead of seeing everything as literal is to try to see it as Christ and the gospel as victorious in the end.
People read the “wrath of the Lamb” in Revelation 6 and assume a very angry Lamb literally tormenting people with physical pain. Wrath is simply an intense passion or emotion. Remember, God told us to put off our wrath because it was described as a sin of the flesh. God's wrath is not our wrath but we tend to picture God's wrath as an intense temper tantrum that goes beyond ours.
The Lamb is ONLY associated with redemption and not terror and punishment. Look up all the references to Lamb and notice how Religion changes the Lamb of Revelation 6 from an image of a gentle Lamb into a vicious beast on the attack.
I do not read Revelation literally at all. I rarely if ever read the Book of Revelation. If John did not understand everything he was seeing then nothing today will make the book completely clear. What I do see when reading Revelation is quite a colorful story of what the gospel accomplished. I will be brief as possible hoping not to confuse anyone.
The wrath of the Lamb is a picture of His passion toward others. Those “kings of the earth” and others trying to hide from this Lamb where you can read how they they cried out for the mountains to fall upon them was imagery to me of darkness seeking to hide from the light that we read about in John 3. The light came but darkness comprehended it not. Men hide from the light lest their deeds be exposed.
This was not a real story unless you believe a literal lamb was climbing up a mountain side seeking to hurt people. Look for a message in it about the pursuing Lamb of redemption who shed His blood for their sins. Revelation does repeat more than once, "The Lamb slain."
This was not a real story unless you believe a literal lamb was climbing up a mountain side seeking to hurt people. Look for a message in it about the pursuing Lamb of redemption who shed His blood for their sins. Revelation does repeat more than once, "The Lamb slain."
See my video on the Loving Wrath of God:
I see the “kings of the earth” hiding in Revelation 6. I see the same “kings of the earth” making war in chapter 19. I see the same “kings of the earth” in chapter 21:24 bringing “honor and glory” into the city that was only pictured upon planet earth. Religion wants to see only a literal war but I see enemies who were previously fighting now subdued. I see a story about Death riding a horse and the Beast who was figurative being brought down by the gospel. I see death defeated that was the long reigning champion due to sin (wages of sin is death). I see enemies subdued. Paul said in 1stCorinthians 15 that death would be destroyed but enemies “subdued.” Only annihilationists see “subdued” as destroyed from existence that simply amazes me. They were "made alive" again to be put to death again???
We read about the figurative lake of fire that is called the “second death.” I call it figurative because most things thrown into it are figurative (no literal beast, no literal false prophet with 2 horns, no literal death and hades cast into it).
What is the second death? Annihilationists claim that it is when one is resurrected but dies again that makes no sense. I find it strange that the second death is made to be literal by annihilationists inside book full of symbolic/figurative language. I find no mention of two deaths anywhere taught in the OT. I never found it taught in any of the teachings of Paul or in the teachings of Jesus as to this dying twice. Annihilationists focus on "perish" and "destruction" to refer somehow to one being forever annihilated but those words always precede the resurrection to people on planet earth and are never said to be what they will experience in the resurrection. None are raised to extinction. Condemnation is not defined as extinction. Destruction was never defined as the second death. Clearly those who have "perished" (died) will be raised.
What is the second death? Annihilationists claim that it is when one is resurrected but dies again that makes no sense. I find it strange that the second death is made to be literal by annihilationists inside book full of symbolic/figurative language. I find no mention of two deaths anywhere taught in the OT. I never found it taught in any of the teachings of Paul or in the teachings of Jesus as to this dying twice. Annihilationists focus on "perish" and "destruction" to refer somehow to one being forever annihilated but those words always precede the resurrection to people on planet earth and are never said to be what they will experience in the resurrection. None are raised to extinction. Condemnation is not defined as extinction. Destruction was never defined as the second death. Clearly those who have "perished" (died) will be raised.
Again, I find no mention of two deaths anyone in the OT. I thought the wages of sin was death. Do sin wages need to be paid twice now? God warned Adam that if he eat of the fruit then dust he shall return but not twice. One verse that religion twists is Hebrews 9:27 that clearly says, “And as it is appointed unto men ONCEto die, but after this the judgment.” When I believed annihilationism was for me to get around the above verse by arguing Hebrews 6:4 about those “once” enlightened claiming that one can be enlightened more than once, so death can be more than once too. Nice try! However, Hebrews 9:27 is quite clear, “die and then judgment” and not “die and then judgment and die again.” It clearly shows that what follows death is not death. The judgment of Hebrews 9:27 was not the white throne judgment. See my video on Hebrews 9:27:
Whenever I see death in scripture in a figurative or spiritual sense is when I go looking for something “new” to follow. Example would be that our old man was crucified and now we have a new man. Those who died in Christ (the all) are those that are said to have become a new creation in 2nd Corinthians 5:17. Only religion reads the new creatures as those who believed but that robs the word “therefore” in verse 17 pointing back to verse 14. Religion zeroes in on the word “if” of verse 17 as a condition when clearly it was not a condition from verse 14 on. "If one died for all" is clearly not an "iffy" statement. Christ did die for all.
I read the “second death” in Revelation 20 that I would assume the “kings of the earth” in chapter 19 were tossed into but the same “kings of the earth” are read about in chapter 21:24 as bringing honor and glory into the city. I had one man tried claiming that the "kings of the earth" of chapter 19 were not the same "kings of the earth" of chapter 21??? This means the "kings of the earth" of chapter 6 were not the same "kings of the earth" of chapter 19, and were not the same "kings of the earth" of chapter 21??? The "kings of the earth" are mentioned 9 times in Revelation but this man said they were not the same?? Imagine me writing a letter mentioning the name Fred Johnson 9 times inside that letter but some else comes along and claims that a different Fred Johnson was implied in each paragraph. I think we would get confused.
I am seeing a victorious gospel and not some literal event taking place in the future where a real Jerusalem city comes down. If you want to believe it is all literal then be sure to make every reference in Revelation as literal and you will see how silly your beliefs will look.
We have death in chapter 20 but chapter 21 begins with:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Most Baptists and others I know of do not believe they will be resurrected to go to the "New Jerusalem" that is described on planet earth in Revelation 21. How can "nations of the saved" go in and out if this city if it was not on planet earth (Nations exist on earth)? It is clearly called the New Earth. Are we talking about a literal new earth where God will explode this one and start over? Can this not be figurative to the world we might now be a part of in the new covenant? We have got to start thinking outside the religious box.
Will there literally be a new heaven and a new earth or is this a colorful description of the victory of the gospel? Could not the heaven and the earth before referring to the old covenant being passed away and the new ushered in? 2nd Peter 3:10 reads:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
If you study the word "elements" is to see that it was tied to the Law and not planet earth (soil, tree, etc.) Being a literalist can cause some serious problems. I used to view 2nd Peter 3:10 as a nuclear war. It is only to follow the destruction of the "elements" that we read in 2nd Peter 3:
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Be very careful being a "religious" literalist because you will see this new heaven and new earth through the eyes of performance oriented religion.
No more death in Revelation 21 and that is what Paul said more than once but Paul never preached a resurrection to be annihilated as annihilationists read into verses. I do not believe that "hades" still exists because the moment we die now is to be caught up with those who were held captive in hades before Christ. Death has no hold on us. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That would be another blog but wanted to make a quick point.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
If you study the word "elements" is to see that it was tied to the Law and not planet earth (soil, tree, etc.) Being a literalist can cause some serious problems. I used to view 2nd Peter 3:10 as a nuclear war. It is only to follow the destruction of the "elements" that we read in 2nd Peter 3:
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Be very careful being a "religious" literalist because you will see this new heaven and new earth through the eyes of performance oriented religion.
No more death in Revelation 21 and that is what Paul said more than once but Paul never preached a resurrection to be annihilated as annihilationists read into verses. I do not believe that "hades" still exists because the moment we die now is to be caught up with those who were held captive in hades before Christ. Death has no hold on us. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That would be another blog but wanted to make a quick point.
In Christ, all shall be made alive (no more death). Death is said to be destroyed, and the second death in my opinion is death to the first death and not a universal annihilationism. The only annihilationism I believe in is that the “old man” and the "old system" was crucified, buried, and old covenant is no more as such things are to never be resurrected again. See my blog on the elements burned with a fervent heat:
I see “former things passed away” and “I make all things new” in Revelation 21 to be nothing new to Paul who said that we are “new creatures in Christ” and that “old things have passed away and behold all things have become new.”
Death in scripture is also seen as separation and not annihilationism. In Revelation 21 and 22 is to see those "outside" the gates of the city that implies a separation or an exclusion but not annihilationism. We have to be careful how we define words inside a book filled with figurative language and symbols.
I see Revelation as the triumph of Christ. I see that in Paul's writings in Colossians 1:20:
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
I do not believe Jesus annihilates "all things" that oppose Him to have "all things" that do not oppose Him reconciled. All things in earth and heaven reconciled. All things have become new. We are so busy trying to make Revelation literal that we miss out.
I see Revelation showing absolute victory as Paul uttered that in 1st Corinthians 15 where all things we be put under His feet (submission and not annihilationism). I see this language in Colossians 2:15:
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
If Calvary did not take care of sin then wiping people will not either as the OT proved that. I believe Jesus is the "Savior of the world." I believe that Jesus came to save lives and not destroy them as clearly stated in Luke 9. I believe Jesus was the Lamb that had taken away the sin of the world. I believe Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. I believe God is reconciled to the world. I believe God is not imputing sin unto the world. I believe Jesus died for enemies according to Romans 5. I believe love endures all things. I believe love fails not. I believe mercy endures always. Annihilationism is a strange fit to all of that.
I do not read Revelation with the eyes of gloom and doom. I believe much of the things shared are past. Jesus told them that He would come quickly. Only religion turns Jesus into an uneducated person by making us think that “I come quickly” refers to 2000+ years. This also happens when people make something a literal event that must be seen with eyes and refuse to see it any other way. You can keep preaching, "Jesus is coming soon" or "quickly" but you will be uttering what religion has been uttering for such a long time now. All the date settings for Jesus return comes and goes. I guarantee you that you will not see anything in your lifetime. We love sensationalism as boring religion needs some spice to it, so gloom and doom and floating off to heaven is the message people love to hear because their religion now seems to have purpose.
Religion attempts to say that “a 1000 years is but as a day” but that is from God’s perspective and not ours. From our perspective a 1000 years is not quick at all and it certainly is not a day to us. Jesus was telling people in a language they could understand, “I come quickly.” To argue that Jesus meant, "A 1000 years are but as a day" was what He meant when He said, "I come quickly" to finite people is silly. I do not tell my wife, “I am going to the store to buy some milk and will be home soon” and then return 15 years later with the milk. I doubt my wife would say to me after 15 years, “Wow! That was quick!”
We read Revelation and try to make everything literal while missing out on the message of the victorious gospel. Keep that in mind when you read it.
Another thing about annihilationism is that they argue the OT and the removal of enemies as permanent extinction rather than their present removal from the land. What they argue makes no room for a future resurrection if they are now extinct. Your country can bomb its enemies and they would be considered no more but that does not mean extinction from the spiritual side of it.
Philippians 2:9-11 reads:
10 That at the name of Jesus every kneeshould bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Annihilationists will read the parallel verse in Isaiah 45:23-24:
24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Ashamed does not mean annihilated. To try to prove it means annihilated is when the annihilationist will argue Isaiah 41:11:
11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
First of all, Paul was not arguing this or thinking this in Philippians 2:9-11 as only one can insert such an idea. This is not talking about a worldwide annihilationism but rather their enemies who were the Babylonians. Sorry, the Babylonians today will not be ashamed or confounded by your country.
The being ashamed had nothing to do with being annihilated but rather with their "conscious" defeat. It can be as an army fully defeated and those behind the attacks are ashamed and confounded.
Everything will come to nothing. This has nothing to do with a resurrection where they will die again nonsense of annihilationism. There is no second death in the OT. Isaiah 41:11 was not saying, “First they will confess…then they will be ashamed…then they will be as nothing…and then they will die.”
Their being “confounded” had nothing to do with being annihilated by God but rather their own folly had fallen back upon them.
One thing we have to remember is that Isaiah 45 is not speaking of endless extinction of enemies in general. The chapter ends with:
25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
If the one group were permanently annihilated then did Israel's history prove that "all the seed of Israel be justified" permanently? If the one group were made permanently ashamed and confounded then will the glory be a permanent result to "all the seed of Israel"? No, they simply were rejoicing in "their" day, as they were boasting in the Lord. Israel in Romans 11 was blinded, hardened, given a spirit of slumber, and uprooted. I only see their present day enemies removed.
When you read in the OT about the wicked "no more" or that they "shall not be" is to ask, "Where shall they not be?" The answer is here on planet earth. If they go to nothingness then what is this resurrection of the dead? Just a bunch of religious word games.
When you read in the OT about the wicked "no more" or that they "shall not be" is to ask, "Where shall they not be?" The answer is here on planet earth. If they go to nothingness then what is this resurrection of the dead? Just a bunch of religious word games.
The words "cut off" in the OT do not mean annihilationism either because Jesus was said to be "cut off" in Daniel 9:26:
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
1st Samuel 20:15 reads:
But also thou shalt not cut off thy kindness from my house for ever: no, not when the LORD hath cut off the enemies of David every one from the face of the earth.
If anti-Christians "cut off" every believer from the face of the earth then does that argue for extinction? Only if you deny a resurrection.
The problem is that annihilationists use the OT where there was mystery and a lack of understanding and will force their views of the OT into the NT. There was no clear picture of the resurrection. Many believed it but it was not fully revealed.
Try finding one person who feared never being reunited with their dead loved one(s) anywhere in the NT. I do think religious people learn to be cold and calloused to those around them but the thought of not being with my family brings no joy or peace. The Book of Revelation is to be a blessing to those who read it? How in the world is the extermination of your family a blessing?
Just pay careful attention to what annihilationists have you read in the OT because they often refer to a “specific” people cut off from the land. They refer to a specific people destroyed or that have perished. Notice that we were dealing with a people back then removed from the earth, not some future resurrection or even some so-called second death.
Another strange argument by annihilationists is that they see damnation as referring to permanent extinction (fear Him who destroys both body and soul in Gehenna) that was referring to a physical death to a specific people alive and not some second death in the afterlife. If damnation means annihilationism then how could some have a “greater damnation (annihilationism)”? What degrees of extinct are there? See my blog on Gehenna:
I had one annihilationist tell me that the one beaten with “few stripes versus many stripes” referred to one taking longer to be annihilated as they are punished more than the other. I guess God leaves the one on the grill longer to think about what he/she had done before becoming extinct. This foolishness reminds me of a movie called, “My Cousin Vinny” where Vinny wanted to know if the pants he had on were OK to go deer hunting with the District Attorney. His fiance (animal lover) comes out and says, “Imagine you are a deer...you get thirsty…you put your lips to the cool water…BAM!! A bullet rips through your head leaving your brains into a bunch of little bloody pieces…Now I ask you, do you think the deer would care what pants the man had on who shot him?”
I ask you, do you think the man or woman who is being annihilated slowly will end up caring any different than the man or woman snuffed out quickly from existence? You are going to be extinct and those you wronged will never be made right. People commit suicide to get away from their emotional pain and God is supposedly doing the same in the spiritual realm to them, so nobody cares when they are extinct. Not sure what "God will render to EVERY man according to his deed" really implies if they are all equally annihilated. Not sure what "every man shall give an account" if he/she is permanently annihilated.
Annihilationists focus on the verses about losing your own soul as proof for annihilationism when it was dealing with physical life. See my blog on Matthew 16:25-26:
Annihilationists also focus on the broad road that leads to destruction as they read annihilationism into Matthew 7:13-14. They carry all these things from the shadows of the OT. See my blog on Matthew 7:13-14:
Another verse annihilationists use is 2ndThessalonians 1:8-9:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
The above verses had NOTHING to do with those who died. The above leaves no room for a resurrection and some so-called second death. The above verses do not even address all who ever have lived or those who died in the past. It was dealing only with a specific people that were "alive" during a specific time. It was not even addressing us today. Look at the context:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
The “you” are ONLY the Thessalonians during this specific time and the “them” were specific people during that time who were ALIVE troubling them.
For years I would quote the above as proof for annihilationism. I started studying the passage and it dawned on me that the above verse had NOTHING to do with those who died, but only with those who were still alive upon the earth during "that" time.
Also, the Greek word for "everlasting" is incorrect, as the correct meaning is "age." Young's Literal Translation got it right when he translated it as:
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
If you start studying aion and aionios then you will see how the word early on changed from age to everlasting/eternal/forever, but it simply does not mean that. Religion quotes Jesus that warned of "eternal fire" as proof but I will quote Jude 1:7 that used the exact same Greek word to describe the "eternal fire" that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah that clearly went out long ago. Jonah was said to be in the belly of the great fish “forever” (Heb. Olam that is the equivalent to the Greek), but Jonah was only in the belly 3 days.
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
If you start studying aion and aionios then you will see how the word early on changed from age to everlasting/eternal/forever, but it simply does not mean that. Religion quotes Jesus that warned of "eternal fire" as proof but I will quote Jude 1:7 that used the exact same Greek word to describe the "eternal fire" that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah that clearly went out long ago. Jonah was said to be in the belly of the great fish “forever” (Heb. Olam that is the equivalent to the Greek), but Jonah was only in the belly 3 days.
The destruction was NEVER an after death experience and it was not to be experienced by every unbeliever who ever lived. People say that “vengeance” will be taken upon those that “know not God” of all who ever lived (extra words added to the verse not stated). Think about that for a moment. The people who never even heard of the bible is when God is going to come upon them with terrible vengeance and will shed their blood and make them non-existent? You can keep that religious “god.” What Thessalonians is arguing is much like what we read about those in the OT. They will no longer be your "living" enemies.
Again, 2nd Thessalonians was not a resurrection to be destroyed but a people destroyed during that time on planet earth. Also, destruction can refer to ruin and not always death (see Strong’s Concordance), so let's try not to always be so gloomy when it comes to Scripture. 1st Thessalonians 5:3 reads:
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
The word "punished" in 2ndThess. 1:9 is not a word that means "physical pain" but pain could be implied. The word there means "judgment" and "to pay." The ones troubling them and obey not the gospel (living people addressed) would be the ones who would have sudden destruction falling upon them (the ones who "obey not/believe not" the gospel) and the destruction was not after they died and God threw them into the lake of fire where they die twice forever nonsense. These were even the warnings given in the book of Hebrews. It had nothing to do with an afterlife experience. It was a destruction the "earth" (specific nation or nations) would be facing, but not an eternal one or even some second death annihilationism, but one that would last for a period of time. This destruction was not to all men everywhere either, but it was a warning to the land of the living, and such were directly tied to the unbelievers that were troubling the Thessalonians in the context.
The "you" in verse 6 was the Thessalonians. No Thessalonians is suffering trouble today. It was "them" that were told that those troubling "them" (not you) would experience this recompense, but again, that was talking about the land of the living and not to all future generations. One thing quite clear is that it was not talking about some after death experience.
To argue that destruction means annihilationism is plain foolish. Paul handed the fornicator for the “destruction of the flesh” but that the spirit among the Corinthians might be saved/preserved. The destruction of the flesh was for correction and not annihilation.
It is very hard talking to an annihilationist because they see almost every use of the words: perish, destroyed, devoured, destruction, die, death, and damnation as extinction. I do not even bother talking to them about it because I feel I am talking to a wall. If they want to believe in a victorious-less Christ then that is their problem and not mine. I believe all are made alive in Christ and not made dead twice as payment for sin. God is not imputing sin unto the world but clearly He still does by what religion teaches.
Romans 11:32:
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The verse is changed by religion to read that God concluded them all in unbelief so that He can extend His mercy to all beyond Israel. However, unbelievers have their part in the lake of fire that leaves me confused. If unbelievers are annihilated then how is God showing mercy? How does His love fail not? How did Christ die for His enemies and to what purpose was that death for them when they are annihilated? How does Christ love His enemies when they are annihilated? I do not show my love for my son by annihilating him. Enemies might refuse Christ but that does not mean Christ annihilates them for it. They are the lost coin that never lost its value. God has been reconciled to the world even though the world might not have been reconciled to Him (2ndCorinthians 5:19). Annihilationism was not adding up for me.
Paul said to walk after the flesh is "death" compared to walking after the Spirit is "life and peace" in Romans 8. Death was not seen as extinction but rather the life one was experiencing. Ephesians 2:1 teaches that we "were dead in trespasses and sins" but that clearly does not mean extinct. The one who does not love his brother is said to "abide in death" that does not mean annihilationism. Sara's womb was said to be dead that does not mean non-existent. Jesus was said to have died upon Calvary but how was He that same day in paradise with the thief if death implies extinction? This is where the word game is played by religion with the changing of "I say unto you, Today you shall be with me in paradise" to "I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise (some future day)."
I do believe annihilationism runs too far with the words perish and destruction. Look at Job 9:22:
22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.
God destroys the perfect and the wicked into total extinction? Look at Job 34:15:
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
All flesh does die and we do turn to dust. Adam was told that he would return to dust but annihilated forever?
Did Job believe he would be annihilated when he said this in Job 7:
7 O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good.
8 The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not.
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
Look at Job 10:
21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.
Righteous Job annihilated? It rather sounds that Job did not know of a resurrection. Are we to assume that Job would see no more good? We read elsewhere in the OT about the dead unable to praise and how the dead remember "no more." This was simply the picture they had of death. David did say that the dead would rise and praise Him when others did not.
Job says this in chapter 19:
10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.
Sorry, when you see such words as destroyed, death, removed, and gone in the OT is not to rush to the thought "permanent extinction." There are verses like the above that seem to indicate it but Paul makes it quite clear that "all will be made alive" and not only a select few.
We have to be careful because Scriptures can be twisted to say anything. I can make it teach that one will never physically die if I wanted. Jesus said that if one "keeps" His sayings shall never die (once, not two times as annihilationists teach). Solomon said that in the pathway of righteousness is no death (Proverbs 12:28). If we take those verses at face value then I proved present immortality. How about never having a disease in life? I can quote David for proof. This means you will never suffer the cold or flu again. I think you know better. I thought I knew better when formerly embracing the teachings of annihilationism.
Let's face it, we have verses that appear to be universal as well in the OT not teaching annihilationism:
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. (Psalm 22:27-29).
A parallel in my opinion to the above would be Revelation 5:13:
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Universalists have their list of OT verses they believe proves the salvation of all.
Annihilationists believe that God is being merciful in destroying the sinner. They claim that God has to destroy the sinner because he/she rejected the gospel. They believe God cannot simply be merciful to the sinner and pardon all sins (that actually was the result of Calvary and not our act of believing) but will instead be merciful in destroying them. They believe the sinner rejecting the gospel did so by his/her freewill and God will not violate that freewill and forgive and save them. However, my question is what sinner possessing a freewill will say, "Annihilate me God"? Do they have a freewill choice in the matter? If God is going to violate their freewill by destroying them then why can't He violate their freewill in sparing them? Let's face it, I did not sin in the Garden as I did not exercise my freewill, so why do I have to "in Adam all die"? I did not choose death but another chose it for me. Why cannot another chose another option on my behalf? Praise the Lord, Christ was the undoing of Adam. As I died in Adam apart from my freewill is to be made alive in Christ apart from my freewill.
For me to live is Christ, and to die is annihilation? No, it is gain (Philippians 1:21).
You will find annihilationism camping out heavily in the OT. Immortality was not a huge topic in the OT. Look at what Paul said in 2nd Timothy 1:10:
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel
He brought it to "light." I quoted a few verses to show how those in the OT viewed death. They were not shouting, "Death, where is thy victory?" It was not a clear cut topic that we have in the NT.
Again, the good news brought to light "life and immortality" that was not clear in the OT. Look at Hebrews 2:15:
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Fear of death is removed through the resurrection. I do believe in the death no more and the sorrow no more. Paul told us to not "sorrow" as those who have no hope (1st Thessalonians 4:13). Those who have no hope does not mean that they are "hopeless and doomed" but they have no hope (confident expectation) of the resurrection. The resurrection back then is not anything like all the bizarre teachings going on today. Everyone today thinks they go to heaven when they die. You will not find that teaching back then. The resurrection and immortality was brought to light by the good news. Those who did hear the good news or believed it were those who faced death with fear. Sad, but most hellfire minded Christians die with more fear than that of the unbeliever.
Annihilationists have the strange belief concerning the love of God that hellfire forever advocates do. God's love will annihilate you? God's love fails. I can love better than their "god" can. Again, see my blog on Gehenna:
Paul tells us that nothing shall separate us from His love in Romans 8. Religion reads Romans 8 as to believers only. The God who "so loved the world" was never a love that would prevent Him from separating from people. Only those who believe will be loved by God differently than those who do not believe??? So we have God who loved His enemies so much that He died for them to only have them annihilated seems awfully weird to me. God who is not imputing the sins to the world and has been reconciled to the world will annihilate the world of unbelievers??? Annihilate them for what? Something has to be imputed now to annihilate them.
God will annihilate those whom He "so loved" (John 3:16)??? Sorry, I see those in Romans 8 who "live after the flesh shall die" are still those that even "death" shall not separate them from His love. If God could be reconciled to such people who are not even believers (2nd Cor. 5:19) and that His love died for them while they were UNGODLY and ENEMIES then it is a bit odd to say that death will bring their extinction. Love hides a multitude of sins but I guess unbelievers have gone beyond the multitude. Love is patient but I guess God's patience can run out with a man who lived 20 years who rejected their message.
Annihilationism did to me what other "isms" had done. They get you agreeing from the start and they keep going where you feel overwhelmed that you just heard truth when all they are doing is getting you to see words from their angle. I know people who have embraced annihilationism that later had questions popping into their heads making them question this belief of annihilationism. I had that done to me with Calvinism and even Lordship Salvation. Watch a Jehovah Witness share many verses as they try convincing the person that what they have shared is 100% biblical. We simply begin seeing scripture their way. Every time we see the words "perish" is to think that such a person is annihilated. This is the same thing where hellfire advocates see the word "perish" and see "frying consciously in pain."
Annihilationism did to me what other "isms" had done. They get you agreeing from the start and they keep going where you feel overwhelmed that you just heard truth when all they are doing is getting you to see words from their angle. I know people who have embraced annihilationism that later had questions popping into their heads making them question this belief of annihilationism. I had that done to me with Calvinism and even Lordship Salvation. Watch a Jehovah Witness share many verses as they try convincing the person that what they have shared is 100% biblical. We simply begin seeing scripture their way. Every time we see the words "perish" is to think that such a person is annihilated. This is the same thing where hellfire advocates see the word "perish" and see "frying consciously in pain."
I believe I shared enough. The soul that sins shall die (in Adam all die) as Adam was the living soul but Jesus the quickening spirit. In Adam all die but in Christ all shall be made alive. Christ died for all and all died. If we died with Him then we shall live with Him. If we were planted in the likeness of His death (we all were 2nd Cor. 5:14) then we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection. The bible never conditioned resurrection upon believing it. The resurrection is the direct result of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ on behalf of all.
Annihilationism is simply a false teaching less extreme than the hellfire forever advocates being taught today but it is still a false teaching.
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