I have been asked about the fate of Adolf Hitler before but I have received two emails within a month asking where I think he is spending eternity.
Religious person: “Romans 6:23 states that the wages of sin is death. I believe that a man who dies in unbelief must pay those wages in a place called hell forever being eternally separated from God. Wages is what you earn for your sins, so the answer is “yes” to your question.”
Grace believer: “Yes, if Hitler were alive today and asked you, “What must I do to go to hell?” What would be your reply?”
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
I have read a website claiming that Hitler was responsible for the death of nearly 6 million Jews. Not sure if that is correct but we can all agree that many died under his regime. The question I am asked reveals how Hitler’s “behavior” is what is behind those fears many have when contemplating standing before God based on how they too have performed. Their thinking is, “Hitler was just a pure evil man but at least I am trying to do what I believe is right in the eyes of God.” It is the, “I thank thee God that I am not like Hitler” (Pharisee/publican). However, the fear of bad behavior is rooted deep within them. Nobody asks, "What about Fred Johnson who nobody knew in 1683?"
Those asking about the eternal fate of Hitler are often those who are works oriented. It almost never fails that those who ask the question are those who doubt their salvation based on their behavior. I am not saying that the question is bad because Hitler was a lunatic from our perspective but the point I was making was merely an observation.
I have seen Universalists claim that Hitler is in heaven and have seen hellfire believers ranting how God would be unjust to simply forgive such a murderous man who died unrepentant. One side claims that God would be unjust to punish a man billions upon billions of years and the other side claims that God would be unjust to stop punishing Hitler at any time.
In this blog, I would like to point out the contradictions I hear in religion concerning Hitler before I give my answer as to what I believe is the fate of Adolf Hitler. I am going to attempt to expose the contradictions below in a form of a conversation between a religious person and a grace believer. I am not going to spend much time refuting the religious person but for you to simply listen to the typical responses one gives that is a bunch of contradictory nonsense. I know the religious person will read an answer that is not the answer he/she would give and will shout, "Misrepresentation! Straw man! That is not what we believe!" Sorry, I cannot answer for every religion out there in this blog but I will share the common one given.
Grace believer: “Could Hitler have gone to heaven?”
Religious person: “Of course! If Hitler repented and asked Jesus to save him then he would have gone to heaven.”
Grace believer: “You do realize that he killed nearly 6 million Jews, so God would simply forgive him and save him if he repented and trusted Christ?”
Religious person: “Yes, the bible promises life to those who believe.”
Grace believer: “You are saying that all the murders Hitler committed would be forgiven and such a lifestyle as his could never have prevented God from saving him?”
Religious person: “Correct.”
Grace believer: “The only sin that would have kept Hitler from going to heaven was unbelief?”
Religious person: “Correct.”
Grace believer: “So Jesus died for all the sins of Hitler but not the sin of unbelief? Murdering 6 million people could not prevent forgiveness and heaven but only one sin called unbelief? Your reasoning on this matter seems a bit odd to me. To me, I am comparing what you are saying to that of murder and smoking cigarettes. Murder will not prevent you from heaven but smoking a cigarette will. It seems to me that murder would carry the eternal death sentence more so than unbelief (smoking a cigarette) would.”
Religious person: “God takes unbelief very seriously. I believe if Hitler died in unbelief then he would also be punished for his crimes of murder. If he were a believer then he would not be murdering people.”
Grace believer: “The bible says that if you are a believer then you will not be murdering people? I see believers struggling with all sorts of sins but murder is one sin you would not do? Why only murder is something they could not commit? Seems God should take away every sin and not prevent only you from committing the one. David and others in the bible need to hear that message because they murdered.
I know you also claim that Jesus paid the sin debt of every person that ever lived, so how does Hitler pay for the sins already paid in some place you call hell? Do you have a verse that says that if one dies in unbelief is to pay for his/her other sins already paid forever?”
Religious person: “Romans 6:23 states that the wages of sin is death. I believe that a man who dies in unbelief must pay those wages in a place called hell forever being eternally separated from God. Wages is what you earn for your sins, so the answer is “yes” to your question.”
Grace believer: “It is interesting how you claim Romans 6:23 is hellfire when Paul never once preached on hell. Let me ask you, if the wages of sin were death then did Jesus death pay sins wages?”
Religious person: “Of course, as that is what we believe and teach.”
Grace believer: “That is not what you said and that is why I needed clarification as you added words to Romans 6:23 that came from nowhere. If the wages of sin were eternal separation from God in a place called hell then how did Jesus pay sins wages when He was in the grave only 3 days? It appears that a person in your hell is paying a wage Jesus clearly never paid.”
Religious person: “Jesus was God and 3 days in hell was equivalent to an eternity. Jesus never knew separation from the Father. The fact that Jesus was God meant that He could fully absorb the wrath of God that no mere mortal could do. Mankind would have to spend eternity absorbing what Jesus absorbed in 3 days.”
Grace believer: “3 days to absorb God's wrath then clearly He is not as powerful as we once thought because it took Him 72 hours to absorb wrath but that made up teaching sounds silly when you think about it. You now have for the second time put words into scripture that are not even there and you did it without batting an eye. There is nothing in scripture where one is said he/she is required to spend forever absorbing an eternity of wrath. It is a bit strange to even consider that a 16 year old boy who rejected the gospel needs to absorb wrath billions upon billions of years for 16 years of life. If the punishment was eternal separation as you claim then Jesus never paid sins wages. All of those added ideas you came up with are simply a way of ignoring the obvious contradiction. Imagine a man charged for murder and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. However, another man with an impeccable life who never wronged anyone asked the judge if he could go to prison and serve the murderers sentence on his behalf, and the judge agreed. However, 3 days later the man was released from prison. When the judge was questioned as to why the man was released is when the judge replied, “He never knew murder or any crime, so 3 days in prison was equivalent to a lifetime in prison.
The other thing that amazes me is that many religious people claim that Jesus went to hell (Hades) but never at any time cried, “Have mercy upon me…dip your finger in water and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame." Why was Jesus never frying in this hell of yours if that frying represented sins wages supposedly paid in 3 days? How was that absorbing wrath when He appeared to be an observer by your beliefs? Not sure how standing off at a distance from those frying and being tormented in flames and preaching a message of, “Hey, it’s me! Let me share a glorious message of which will be of no benefit to any of you. You will be resurrected one day to only fry again.”
Religious person: “I believe the “spirits” that Jesus preached to were fallen angels and unbelievers. The message would have been glorious to those who have died before as believers but of no benefit to those who rejected Him. The fact that Jesus descended into hell was fact He was paying sins wages because hell is where God is not present. He was enduring separation from God. I obviously see Jesus as infinitely greater than you do where 3 days of hell absorbed an eternity of punishment.”
Grace believer: “I see a mere man arguing religion and not scripture. Hades is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew Sheol, and if it is a place of separation then David was confused when he said, “If I make my bed in hell (sheol) thou are there” as that does not sound like separation to me.
Not sure how you see Jesus as infinitely greater because the Jesus you believe cannot forgive sin freely as mine can. Not sure how your Jesus is infinitely greater because a paid bill is a paid bill, and to repay an already paid bill would now be unjust of the person already paid asking to be repaid. Let’s say that I paid for your dinner where everything you eat, drink, and even the tip was fully covered. Now imagine the restaurant going to punish you with life in prison for not paying your dinner bill all because you did not believe it was paid. Imagine the lawyer representing the restaurant said, “This man did not believe his meal was paid for in full so therefore he is guilty as though he never paid for the meal at all. This man simply walked out of the restaurant not believing his bill was paid and we are seeking life in prison for robbing the restaurant of a $36.00 meal that was paid for by another.” Does that not sound ridiculous to you? You are saying that if we do not believe our sins are paid then we have to pay for them ourselves in hell and that is ridiculous. No verse even says that. We have to spend eternity absorbing the wrath you claim your Jesus absorbed in 3 days that no verse even teaches.
You said that if Hitler did not believe then he would have to be punished for the murders he committed. OK, does it make sense for me to say that the dinner I paid for is not really paid for until you believe it is paid for?
Religious person: “The sacrifice of Jesus does no good until you receive it.”
Grace believer: “That’s a bible verse? Forgive me here, but it is you who teaches the bill paid in full view and I want to talk a little more about your contradiction. If a bill has been paid and you do not believe it was paid then how are you then required to pay an already paid for bill? Can you provide a verse and not your religion on this matter? Clearly the man who ate the meal at the restaurant could fear punishment for not having cash on him if he truly believed nobody paid for his meal but it simply would be a lie he was believing and not reality. If he walked out of the restaurant and was arrested then clearly the bill was never paid. Your “Unbelief causes a person to pay his own bill” is contradictory nonsense not from the bible.
The man walking out of the restaurant not believing his bill was paid may think that he got away from a crime because nobody arrested him but the reality is that no crime was committed. The apostle Paul speaks of those who believe the truth versus error. Paul speaks of those who have a darkened understanding, blind, and void of understanding. Their ignorance does not make truth less real. They are living their lives unable to see the already reality, and that would be a fully paid-in-full dinner bill in your case.”
Religious person: “Truth has to be received before you can reap its benefits.”
Grace believer: “Agreed! The man who realizes that his bill was paid immediately reaps the benefits of a delicious dinner and walks out of the restaurant without fear of being stopped. Was Hitler’s bill paid-in-full?
Your view of the death of Jesus is that He is holding a large amount of cash in His wallet and if this man would just believe then Jesus will pay that bill as that would make more sense to what you claim to believe. However, that would make believing a work because you had to do something to get your bill paid and that is exactly what religion does to believing. It is no surprise that so many ask, "Did I believe ENOUGH? Did I believe the right way?”
Religious person: “That is not what I believe. We are saved by NOTHING we do. It is all by the grace of God that anyone is saved.”
Grace believer: “What then did Hitler have to do to go to hell forever?”
Religious person: “Did you mean to say, “Hell forever?”
Grace believer: “Yes, if Hitler were alive today and asked you, “What must I do to go to hell?” What would be your reply?”
Religious person: “I would tell him that he had to do nothing because he would already be on that road to hell anyways.”
Grace believer: “You just got through saying that we do NOTHING to go to heaven but then said that Hitler would have to do NOTHING to go to hell. If we do nothing to go to heaven and we do nothing to go to hell then we have a problem.”
Religious person: “No, one must believe to go to heaven.”
Grace believer: “OK, then it is not by NOTHING we do but by SOMETHING we do.”
Religious person: “I do not view believing as a work. You believe the earth is round but do you foolishly call that a work for believing it is round? It is not something you do but rather something you believe. Do you agree?”
Grace believer: “Sure, I believe the earth is round and do not call that a work. Why do I not call that believing a work? First, because the earth being round is a reality whether I believe it or not. Secondly, the earth is not saying to me, “If you believe I am round then you will go to heaven.” This is what I was getting at earlier by saying that one believes the truth and the other a lie. A lie would be the earth is a triangle but one’s ignorance that the earth is round would not change the fact that the earth is round. I do not believe in order for the earth to become round but I believe because the earth is round. A man does not believe his dinner bill is paid to have it paid but believes it was already paid. Not believing does not make it any less paid.
Let me ask you, Could not God just forgive Hitler and save him?”
Religious person: “No, because that would make God unjust.”
Grace believer: “God would be unjust? Would the restaurant be unjust if they made the man pay for the meal that had been already paid? Of course you would agree with that, but would God be unjust when it was Christ who died for the unjust requiring the unjust to pay for what the just already paid on his/her behalf? You already said that 6 million murders would not hinder God from forgiving him. How would God be unjust if He simply forgave Hitler on the merits of Christ?”
Religious person: “God will not force Himself upon anyone. He has given each man a will that chooses heaven or hell. He would be unjust to violate your will. He would not have a person enter heaven who is kicking and screaming against it.”
Grace believer: “I never seen anything remotely close to what you just said in scripture and you seem fine with that. God would not have anyone enter heaven kicking and screaming against it but would have them spend eternity kicking and screaming to get out. Your “god” is insane, contradictory, and cruel. Your god has no heart.
Let me ask you, did the sin of Adam make death/condemnation of all men a possibility in your religion?”
Let me ask you, did the sin of Adam make death/condemnation of all men a possibility in your religion?”
Religious person: “No, Adam brought death to all he represents.”
Grace believer: “Whom he represents? You mean all of humanity?”
Religious person: “Correct.”
Grace believer: “If God is unjust by forgiving us freely in Christ then how is God not unjust for condemning us freely in Adam? You agreed that death/condemnation passed to all. However, I never recall exercising my freewill and choosing death in the Garden, so how is that not unjust but Christ bringing life to the same all (1st Corinthians 15:22) now becomes unjust? I see a contradiction again. You said that God violating our freewill would be unjust but what freewill did you exercise in the Garden? It seems that you love a “god” who justly condemns all mankind based on one sin apart from our freewill but are against a loving God who undid what the first Adam brought to all mankind apart from our freewill as well. This is why I see so much hate and anger spewing from the lips of religious people because they despise and hate a loving and forgiving God as did the Pharisees.”
Religious person: “You were in Adam. Adam represented the human race, so when Adam sinned it was us all sinning with Him. Imagine your great grandfather shot and killed for robbing a bank. You obvious did not rob the bank but you were in him (grandfather) and when he died is when you died too. You could not be born without him.”
Grace believer: “Then why is it so hard to believe the “last Adam” brought life to the same “all” that in Adam died? If you can accept that we all experienced what the first Adam brought apart from our freewill then why can you not accept that the last Adam (Jesus) brought life to the same all apart from our freewill? Why is the one just and the other unjust? Remember, Adam came in the flesh and so did Jesus. Jesus was the undoing of Adam.”
Religious person: “Because Adam represents those in him. Jesus represents those in Him also. To be “in Adam” is to be born on this planet. To be “in Christ” is to be born again spiritually. Adam represented humanity but Jesus Christ represented those who believed in Him.”
Grace believer: “Paul never made such a distinction that you are making. He never said, “All in Adam die, and all in Christ that believed are made alive.” He said, “In Adam all die but in Christ all shall be made alive.” You reversed the order of words and add to it. Anyways, it does not matter because 2nd Corinthians 5:14 tells us that Christ died for ALL. He then said that if one died for ALL then we are ALL dead. Are you going to limit the second half of 2ndCorinthians 5:14 like you do 1st Corinthians 15:22? Look at the verse in 2nd Corinthians 5:
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead
It does not say, “One died for all but those only who believe died with Him.” The “all” for whom Christ died are the same “all” who died in that death. Does one have to believe it first before they die with Him? Obviously not!”
Religious person: “What’s your point?”
Grace believer: “2ndTimothy 2:11 states that if we died with Him then we shall also live with Him. This mirrors 1st Corinthians 15:22 exactly. Again, 2nd Corinthians 5:14 states that we ALL have died with Him and if we have died then we SHALL live also with Him.”
Religious person: “No, it says, “If we died with him” in 2nd Timothy 2:11 and not, “We have all died with him.” You are twisting words and leaving out the conditional word if that Paul used.”
Grace believer: “No, I am not twisting words because the word “if” was used quite often by Paul to stress a reality and never an iffy condition. Look again at 2ndCorinthians 5:14 because it reads, “IF one died for all.” If the word “if” refers to a possibility and not a reality then Jesus did not die for all because Paul used the word “if” concerning his death (if one died for all)? You seemed to have missed that.
I still am trying to figure out how your Jesus is infinitely greater than mine. Here you do not believe the sin of Adam resulted in possible death/condemnation but that it was passed to all men because all men have sinned. However, you believe the last Adam who represented mankind made life a mere possibility. How is your Jesus infinitely greater when the first Adam clearly was more powerful than the last Adam? You made the first Adam more powerful than God Himself. Clearly the first Adam is winning and your “god” is getting royally whipped because your teaching states that more go to hell than heaven.
Your first Adam did not make death a mere possibility but your last Adam made life a mere possibility. Your “god” decided to make death to pass upon all mankind apart from choice (all those who lived after Adam) but then decided to make life to be based on choice and not pass to all. The death passing to all mankind apart from freewill was just but life to pass on all apart from freewill is unjust?? This is a bunch of contradictory nonsense!”
Religious person: “I believe the bible teaches that a person goes to hell for unbelief and sins.”
Grace believer: “Do you have a verse that says you go to hell for unbelief? Look up every verse on Gehenna and notice that it only dealt with works and never the rejection of a death, burial, and resurrection gospel. Gehenna was an earthly experience and not an after death one. Only physical bodies were cast into this Gehenna. Nobody was resurrected to go into this Gehenna. It was also limited to a certain people during a certain time.
Anyways, which hell does the person go to for not believing?”
Religious person: “What do you mean, “Which hell”?”
Grace believer: “Gehenna? Tartaroo? Hades? Lake of fire (never called hell)? When a person dies then which hell do they go?”
Religious person: “Hades and Gehenna are basically the same. Hades is the realm you go but Gehenna is the flames or torment of it. Lake of fire is the ultimate place a person will go to but that is after the white throne judgment.”
Grace believer: “Can you quote a verse that says that or do I have to take for granted that what you are saying is true without evidence? You ramble off answers that you seem to attempt to make flow smoothly with your beliefs apart from scripture. Most things I hear from religious people are made up and added to scripture and it is almost always something terribly negative. For instance, AIDS is judgment from God. 9/11 was judgment from God upon homosexuals and taking prayer out of schools. Hurricane Katrina was judgment from God. The late Robin Williams is burning in hell (Youtube comments). This misconception was seen a lot in the OT and that is why Jesus came to reveal the Father. Many religious people are so full of hate, unforgiveness, and anger that everyone else can see such hate when they talk about God because their speech reveals hatred of people and what they do or not do. How a person views love and acceptance says a lot about the God or god they claim to believe. The speech of a religious person claiming to love God and people deceives them. Preach grace and religious people come and attack it as it reveals their hatred of the light as they prefer darkness. They want to hide from the light. Why? Is a too good to be true God that horrific to them?”
Religious person: “Yes, I can quote a verse showing that hades/Gehenna was distinct. The bible speaks of the rich man in hades but also in flames. The flames was not called Hades but was a part of hades. We know from the OT that hades was not seen as a place of fire but rather Gehenna is the fire of hell. Eventually hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Tartaroo was for fallen angels only.”
Grace believer: “Let me make sure I understand you correctly. When an unbeliever dies is to go to hell (hades) where they will be tormented in hell (Gehenna) and those in hell (Hades/Gehenna) will be tossed into hell (the Lake of Fire) in the end, and I guess those fallen angels in hell (tartaroo) will be joining them in hell (lake of fire) later?” (I have blogged on hell so I will not be sharing anything on the subject here to save time).
Religious person: “You are just trying to mock me and make the bible look ridiculous.”
Grace believer: “No, I am not trying to mock you but expose the contradictory lies you have been hearing and are now parroting to me. Hell is not even a Greek word and that is why it has created so much confusion with the 4 different hells.
You said that hell is eternal separation from God but what does 2nd Corinthians 5:19 mean to you where the world is reconciled? What does Colossians 1:20-21 that teaches those reconciled (world) are the same ones no longer alienated from God mean to you? In fact, the alienation was said to be in our minds. How then is one reconciled and not alienated by God in a place called hell? Are you saying that if they do not believe then God will alienate Himself from them once they die because clearly while they are alive they are reconciled and not alienated by Him right now?”
Religious person: “It refers only to those alive on earth as they are given a chance to believe or reject.”
Grace believer: “Really? I heard only a small percentage of the world has heard of such a gospel of grace. How is everyone given a chance to believe or reject? God came into this world to leave us a book printed in ink with many unverifiable passages where billions upon this planet who never heard will be fried forever because they failed to read this one book printed in ink and failed to interpret it according to the fundamentalist point of view? Some claim that there are 3 things that they must know first and others up to 6 things they must know. How can they make sense of what confused theologians cannot even agree on? These people will die being separated because they believed 5 things God wanted them to know but missed point number 6?”
Religious person: “I believe a person is eternally separated from God because Paul said that they would be destroyed from the “presence of the Lord” and that is preaching separation.”
Grace believer: “Adam and Eve were said to have hid themselves from the “presence of God.” Cain was said to have gone out from the “presence of the Lord” to dwell in some land. Jonah was said to have fled from the “presence of the Lord.” Were they all actually separated from God? You teach that hell is in the afterlife where a person will suffer torment and eternal “separation” but then you also quote Revelation 14:10 as proof for you hell that reads:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb
So how is hell the eternal separation from God but also at the same time in the presence of angels and the Lamb? If you are not going to quote scripture then I really do not want to hear your religion being forced into the verse. Anyways, the above verse was picturing the redemptive Lamb. People twist it to be a literal story but the context shows that it was talking about humans on planet earth and not some after death experience. Religious people say that there is no day or night in hell and yet your proof text says otherwise in verse 11. You now have a hell that is outer darkness and also a place where the sun rises and sets. You have a hell that is eternal separation from God and a hell that is in the presence of God. Any more contradictions you wish to share with me?
Let me ask you, would God be just in forgiving Hitler on the merits of Christ but not those 6 million Jews that Hitler killed?”
Religious person: “Not sure if I fully understand your question. Can you rephrase it please?”
Grace believer: “Hitler killed 6 million Jews. Some were starved to death, others were crammed in into a small room where many died fighting to breathe, others burned alive, others died by poisonous gas, others died from poor conditions leading to disease, and others were shot. Now imagine those 6 million Jews standing before God about to go from hell (hades) to hell (lake of fire) as you claim. However, they happened to look behind God where they saw Hitler laughing, hugging people, and having a great time. Imagine one of the Jewish victims asking God, “Why is Hitler in your heaven and not with us?” God replies, “It is because he asked for forgiveness and accepted Jesus as the full payment for his sins and you did not.” You are calling that just? To me the death of 6 million Jews is being greatly overlooked here and those Jewish victims sure are getting the short end of the stick.
Hitler I guessed realized his dinner was paid-in-full but those 6 million Jews walked out of the restaurant unaware it was paid for and was arrested for robbery???”
Religious person: “It is not by works of righteousness we have done. God did not overlook the 6 million murders Hitler had done but rather looked at the work Jesus had done on His behalf.”
Grace believer: “So God on the merits of Christ forgave Hitler of murdering 6 million Jews but damned the Jewish unbelievers for only one sin called unbelief? We all claim that what Hitler had done was cruel. People were burned alive and we call that cruel, but your “god” is now about to send those who died a cruel death in fire to a fire that never ends? That is just to you? You can see Hitler’s actions as unjust and cruel but your god’s actions as just and righteous?
What do you say about those who never heard the gospel? I am talking about those born in some tribe where missionaries had never been.”
Religious person: “They have nature around them to observe. They can see that there is a God by creation and they have laws written in their own heart that tells them right from wrong. If they choose to do what is wrong then they are damned forever.”
Grace believer: “Before you claimed that Adam’s sin brought condemnation/death to all. You said that all one must do to go to hell is NOTHING. Your misunderstanding of Romans 10 as being applied to an after death experience should clarify that observing nature is not enough because, “How can they believe if they have not heard?” Remember, there is no other name given whereby a man must be saved, so how will a geological god view save anyone?
What do you say about those born mentally challenged?”
Religious person: “God is a good God and will not damn them for their inability to reason what is true or not.”
Grace believer: “Again, you make up answers and quote no scripture. Let me see if I have this correct. You said earlier that if someone asked you what they can do to go to hell where you said the answer is NOTHING as they are already on that road. You now say that those born in some tribe will go to hell the moment they choose what is wrong going against their conscience that is "something" to me. To me, the answer should still be nothing but your answers do constantly change that is typical of religion. So the man born in a tribe that never heard will go to hell because he never heard the gospel but the mentally challenged person who is unable to reason the gospel will go to heaven? One goes to hell for not hearing it and the other goes to heaven for not being able to understand it. Let me see if I am understanding you correctly, you claim that the one man goes to hell the moment he chooses wrong because Adam already brought death to him but the other man cannot go to hell because he is incapable of knowing he does wrong even though death passed down to him as well?
You said that man (ALL MEN) is justly condemned because of one sin done by Adam. Stop changing your answers. This is something I wish people would hear themselves because religion preaches nothing but contradictions.”
Religious person: “I never said that those in a tribe will end up in hell that you accused me of but rather when they choose to go against their conscience is when they will.”
Grace believer: “I answered that and so did you earlier claiming that we all died in grandpa who was shot robbing a bank as we all died in him (mentally challenged or the ignorant), but now you seek to keep tweaking your beliefs to make your contradictions seem plausible. Also, there is not a person alive that has not gone against their conscience? Remember, we have ALL gone astray. We have all sinned. The sin of Adam brought death to all, so how will life now be brought to those in a tribe? Remember, God will not violate their freewill as you claim. They ignorantly live their lives unaware of the condemnation/death that is theirs apart from their freewill and they are hopeless of ever exercising their freewill to somehow “get” (works oriented gospel) into Christ because they never heard of Him.”
Religious person: “I said that God is a good God. I do not have answers to all questions so I leave it in the hands of God as to what will happen to those who never heard.”
Grace believer: “That is a cop out. You are simply looking to get out of the hole you just dug for yourself. In Romans 10, it specifically says that one must call upon the name of the Lord to be saved that you see as an after death experience. It then goes on to question as to how a person can believe if one is not sent. It says, how can they believe if they have not heard?? You said before that Hitler did not believe and that is why he went to hell. What if Hitler never heard the gospel? If ignorance is key to increasing the odds of going to heaven then preaching the gospel is the worst thing we could ever do to people. We should be thankful for abortions, those who die in early age, and those born mentally challenged by what you are teaching. At least they do not have to suffer in the hands of a cruel god.
I said earlier that Jesus died for all and that all died (2nd Corinthians 5:14). I said that those that have died (all) shall live also with Him (2nd Timothy 2:11). Romans 8 states, “Who is He that condemns” when it was Jesus who had died. For whom did Christ die? One died for all (2ndCorinthians 5:14). He is the propitiation for the sins of what? The whole world of believers??? Only religion inserts that nonsense into the verse, and others who do preach “whole world” of every creature preaches only a possible propitiation. How many knees will bow and how many tongues will confess and where is hell in that chapter? Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world except Hitler’s? Jesus is the “savior of the world” except 6 million Jews that died horrifically.
Again, is God really just in allowing Hitler to kill 6 million Jews who go to their eternal death chamber but Hitler gets off the hook with, “Hey! I goofed up! I repent. I believe. Thank you for paying that bill of mine!”? If someone killed your child then would the judge be just if he simply forgave your child’s murderer because he said sorry to the court and asked for forgiveness? Would you think it is just if another man went to prison on behalf of your child's murderer and the murderer is now walking the streets? I only say that because most ignore deep down the part of them that cries, "JUSTICE!" where parents who hear their child's murderer claiming "Salvation in Christ" before being executed angers them. They want them to burn in hell and not be forgiven. What makes matters worse is when religion claims the person murdered is in hell but the man who murdered him/her is in heaven by a simply, "Sorry God...Jesus save me!"
Karla Faye Tucker is one perfect example as she died as a believer and was praising God while being put to death by lethal injection. People were singing outside, "Amazing Grace" but others were shouting and drowning out the song with their shouts of, "Kill the bitch!" It is easy to say that Karla was forgiven according to your religion but what if it was one of your children that she killed? It is only when it personally affects us when our true beliefs comes out. It is so easy for you to believe Hitler would have been forgiven of 6 MILLIONS murders because it does not personally affect you. What if your entire family was murdered by him? I doubt a religion so full of hate and anger would say what you are claiming to me."
Religious person: “Jesus paid for Hitler’s sins and that is why he would be forgiven and saved. Yes, I would expect it to be very difficult for families to forgive him but what is impossible for man is possible for God.”
Grace believer: “He paid for every sin but unbelief according to you. However, John 1:29 states that Jesus had taken away the SIN of the world. What was that SIN? Unbelief.”
Religious person: “It does not say unbelief in John 1:29.”
Grace believer: “The Holy Spirit convicts the world of UNBELIEF according to Jesus. Sure, it does not specifically say, “Unbelief” in John 1:29 but any sin you like to make John 1:29 about will not be found in the verse either. The “sin” (not sins) of the world was unbelief as that was the only sin ever identified to the world. It never said the “sin of the world is murder” but that Jesus will convict the world of sin because “they do not BELIEVE in me” (John 16:8-9), so the sin of the world was unbelief.
If God could not forgive Hitler of unbelief then why does 2nd Corinthians 5:19 state that God is not only reconciled to the WORLD but He also is not imputing sin unto the WORLD? If God is not imputing sin unto the world then how is that not also applied to Hitler?”
Religious person: “Not imputing does not mean forgiveness. It means that God currently is not holding their sins against them giving them a chance to repent and believe.”
Grace believer: “Imputing refers to a reality. It is God reckoning something to be true. You again added words to the bible and did so without twitching. If a man tells you, “I am not imputing any wrong you have done to me but I have not forgiven you for it” then can we say that he is not imputing your wrong doing? If God is not imputing sins only in this life then His forgiveness is only skin deep.”
Religious person: “What do you mean only skin deep?”
Grace believer: “I am referring to the physical existence of man (skin deep) because the moment he/she dies is when God no longer forgives. God’s love fails. The sin of Adam prevails and Christ succumbs to defeat.
I still want to know how your Jesus is significantly greater than mine. Your god says to forgive your enemies but he himself forgives no man until they repent and believe. Your god is saying, “Do as I say and not as I do.” My God however gave me an example to behold. He has forgiven me and now asks me to forgive others because I already have been forgiven (Ephesians 4:32).”
Religious person: “No, Jesus said to forgive to be forgiven.”
Grace believer: “Before Calvary was forgive to be forgiven. It was also do good to be blessed under the Law. After Calvary, it became “forgiving others as Christ had forgiven you” and it also teaches us that we have already been“blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places.”
You say that God would be unjust to forgive someone apart from their freewill, but do you have any support for that in Scripture? Did Jesus get the consent from those nailing Him to the cross if He could pray, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”? He forgave them without their permission. Was Jesus unjust?”
Religious person: “No, there sin was based on ignorance as why Jesus forgave them.”
Grace believer: “Really? So now Jesus forgives people based on their ignorance and yet you teach He damns others for their ignorance (unbelief). You again are contradicting yourself. If these men are going to hell anyways for “nothing they do” then what good was that forgiveness Jesus just offered them for what they have done? Imagine you are about to be hanged for two crimes and the judged said, "I forgive you of your one crime" and then hanged you for the crime. Who cares if your one crime was forgiven because the end result is still the same.
Also, if Jesus forgave them based on ignorance then I should ask you again about those who never heard the gospel because their unbelief is based on ignorance. See how you keep having to change your answers because one thing contradicts another?
Religious person: “OK, where is Hitler today? Are you saying that he was just welcomed into heaven with open arms?”
Grace believer: “No, my purpose was to challenge your belief that he was taken into hell with open arms. You claim that Jesus paid for sin in full but if one does not believe it then they must pay that same debt Jesus already in hell that is a contradiction. Your belief is that Jesus paid for every sin but one even though Jesus was the Lamb of God that has taken away the sin of the world. Much of the confusion comes from the physical salvation being offered to those during a specific time (as was in many specific events in the OT) and twisted into an after death offer of supposed salvation. The point I was getting at was that Jesus was forgiving people who did not even ask for forgiveness and Jesus had done that more than once in His ministry. He forgave the adulterous woman without her asking for it.”
Religious person: “No, the forgiveness had a condition upon it and that was to sin no more. The sin was obviously adultery.”
Grace believer: “No, Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you, go and (the) sin no more.” He did not say, “Sin no more and I will not condemn you.” Jesus told his disciples to forgive 70 times 70. If this woman was caught in adultery again then Jesus still would not be condemning her. Only religious people are the ones doing the condemning.
How about the harlot Jesus freely forgave? Later she came to wash the feet of Jesus with her hair and tears and yet the Pharisee identified her as a present tense harlot (If he were a prophet then He would have known what manner of women this ISthat touches Him). Jesus did not argue and say that she stopped being a harlot but talked about a woman who now loves much. This is something absent in hellfire churches. I only see the condemnation of the Pharisees spewing their hate under the pretense of love. Love is very conditional in religion. Love is very much a part of the gospel that is lacking in the religious gospel full of fear, conditions, and anger.
Was Jesus unjust for forgiving the man of the palsy in Matthew 9:2 without his freewill? The Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy and you accuse God of being unjust for forgiving freely anyone who does not ask for it. What if Hitler was alive during the times of Christ and Jesus said to him, "Your sins that are many are forgiven"? Would you accuse Jesus as did the Pharisees of blasphemy? Would Jesus be unjust in forgiving him?
Religion accuses me of heresy/blasphemy for preaching that the sins of the world are already forgiven. I believe that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world and not a mere possible propitiation. I believe Jesus is the Savior of the world and not a possible savior. I believe Jesus has taken away the sin of the world and not made that possible. I believe God concluded all men in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all (Romans 11:32). I believe the unbelief will not make God’s faithfulness (faith of God) without effect (Romans 3:3). I believe that if we believe not that Jesus will abide faithful (2nd Timothy 2:13). I believe we are justified by the faith OF Christ (faithfulness of Christ). See my blog Saved by His Faithfulness!!!.
I believe all will be made alive in Christ. I believe Christ died for all and that all died, and those that died (all) will live with Him. I believe EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue shall confess the Lord Jesus and there is no hell in that passage where your religion tries to insert into it. I believe God is not imputing sin to the world. I do not believe God’s love can ever fail a person in this life or the next. I believe God has been reconciled to the world. Your god is not significantly greater but significantly subservient to mankind. The first Adam is kicking the last Adam’s rear end. We can love better than your god. We can forgive better than your god. We make more reasonable sense than your god. It is time to question your god of religion because he is the god of this world and he has been lying to you.
It amazes me how people view Hitler as the cruelest man without stopping to think about their own god for a moment. Most people always stop and ask, “What about God in the OT? He seemed so angry and so vindictive. How do we reconcile that to Jesus who said, “If you have seen me then you have seen the Father”? Those who hold the OT was only spoken by God from His own perspective will not care for what I believe. I see the OT many times picturing man’s distortions of God. Jesus corrected things that were said in the OT. Jesus said, “Ye have heard to hate your enemies…but I say to love your enemies and do good to those who spitefully use you.” That is unlike the God talked about in the OT. Jesus did not say that the Father currently was on a vacation from a temper tantrum. Jesus spoke against the "eye for an eye" and that came from Exodus 21:24 (God's law or man's law???). The Pharisees believed God did not hear sinners (one verse often cited is Psalm 66:18 and still quoted by those who claim free grace against sinners) and yet Jesus proved that to be otherwise. God was accused many times of doing horrible things to people in the OT and I see the same things going on today where disease and catastrophes are blamed as being by God. I see death, wars, and ill treatment of others being justified in the name of their god (Christianity and others). Religion always tries to come up with a plausible view of the God of the OT and the Jesus representing the real Him in the NT. They simply try fusing the two together. This why many feel more comfortable around Jesus and not the Father. The Father is viewed by many as foaming at the mouth when it comes to sin and Jesus is the harp playing soothing His deep seated anger for a season because Jesus harp quits playing for you the moment you die in unbelief and God now let's loose the supposed anger fully exhausted at Calvary on you.
Richard Dawkins gave his honest opinion of how the bible in the OT pictures God to him when he wrote:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
The above is exactly the type of “god” I see preached in much of religion today. How people view Revelation and choose to make it literal are failing to see that they have created the same “god” Dawkins speaks about. If Hitler was unjust then what do we do with the “god” people seem to see in Revelation?
Imagine I had the power to resurrect anyone who ever lived and I chose to resurrect Adolf Hitler. The moment I resurrect him is when he begins to kill Jews in barbaric ways. Was I just in raising up Hitler? Could I not say, “I did not raise him to kill anyone?” I am sure you would call me unjust. I would be very cruel if I said that I raised him back to life to kill again and I doubt nobody would disagree with the fact that I am extremely cruel. I wish that they would remember that they agree that I would be the cruelest man because Revelation 20:7-8 reads:
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
According to religion and their view of Satan is now to read the most cruel god in history in the above verses. Here we have Satan resurrected from the prison that held him by God and is now able to deceive nations again (according to religion, bringing as many to hell with him as possible). Why would God raise the greatest spiritual mass murderer alive when we were all doing so great with Satan all bound up? Why would He release him to torment and damn forever those that were not deceived prior to his being released? To answer that by saying that God allows people to freely choose to be deceived is about as idiotic as me saying, “My raising Hitler was just as Jews are free in choosing to hide from him where if they get killed is their own fault. You cannot get around that God would be the greatest Hitler imaginable if the religious literal view of Revelation 20 were true.
If we buy into the literal interpretation of the scriptures then what shall we do with the verse that says that the devil has come to steal, kill, and destroy? Be sure to take man’s skewed view of God and that of man's view of the OT and do the math. Who (God or Satan) killed more than anyone else? In religion, who is the one who brings disease and death upon people? Who teaches that financial disaster is from God? God is the one taught in religion of robbing people of health or even financial wealth as punishment.
Hitler versus the perceived god of scripture…who killed more? The religious god always prevails as being the world's greatest mass murderer. How many children did your Satan have killed? How many did your "god" in the OT have killed? I am talking about infants slaughtered? Yet this murderous god of religion will simply forgive Hitler of 6 million murders if he believes and will fry 6 million victims of Hitler's murderous hands because of their ignorance of a 3 to 6 step religious gospel. I would say that we should not call Hitler cruel at all.”
Religious person: “Are you saying that Hitler is in heaven right now?”
Grace believer: “I do not know what Hitler is doing right now or where exactly he is. I simply know that if the 6 million Jews were not sent to an eternal death chamber but were embraced in a realm of forgiveness, love, and acceptance then how would they be viewing Hitler right now who killed them? We do not carry our unforgiveness, bitterness, and hatred into that realm of pure love and forgiveness. God was compassionate on them and their wrongdoings, so why would it be any less for Hitler? If we are told to forgive our enemies here then why is that not what is experienced in the next life to the fullest extent? Enemies will be subdued (1stCor. 15:25, 28) as they will never harass believers again. They will harass nobody, but they are not said to be "absorbing" anything.
Condemnation is said to be hiding from the light. Those condemned will have no place to hide as the full force of the light (love, truth) will shine in on their darkness. They might cry for the mountains to fall on them but this love will not let them go. How long this will last is something I cannot answer. It is pointless to answer because the Bible is very vague on the next life. I simply will not be arguing the 'paid bill if believed only' nonsense of religion. I simply would view God as unjust for telling me to do something (forgive others) that He Himself cannot do. This means that we can go to heaven and hold our unforgiveness against someone and be angry with them forever because that is what God Himself is doing according to religion. I would view God as unjust who asks me to love my enemies when He cannot do the same. Only religion is quick to cut off the ears of others (Peter) but the God I serve heals. Only man pictures God as bringing disease and death but I see Jesus as the one who healed and gave life. Only mankind withholds forgiveness and clings to bitterness but I see God freely forgiving and doing so without man’s permission. Religion claims that God fully exhausted His wrath upon Jesus at Calvary but I only see man demonstrating his wrath upon Jesus instead. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself as He was never separated from Jesus at any time. Be sure to read ALL of Psalm 22 to see that "My God, why hast thou forsaken me" was concluded that God never had forsaken Him (verse 24). Jesus was not despised by God but man.
I simply know that those who view Hitler’s lifestyle and claim that he is frying forever often have an elevated self-righteous view of themselves (I am a good person and not like him) or they view the gospel from a works oriented perspective and do not even realize it.
If Hitler is currently enjoying forgiveness then who here is going to call God unjust? Jesus died for His enemies as He did not lay down His life to no lasting purpose. I simply believe the last Adam was more powerful than the first. I believe the first Adam brought death to all and the last Adam brought life to the same all. How that quality of life is currently being enjoyed by Hitler is something I cannot answer. Is he permitted to continue on in his ignorance of truth? Is he permitted to continue hiding from the light? These are questions I cannot fully answer. Do I believe love is always extended to Him? Absolutely. God's love and mercy never fails. It is that unconditional love that religious people hate and seek to attack and hide from, and it could be exactly what Hitler hates and is hiding from today because the light exposes what is in the darkness. A believer embraces love but religious people see it as a threat. A believer can stand naked and unashamed but a religious person goes reaching for fig leaves to cover what they perceive as shame.
Remember, Adam sinned and God chose to “impute” sin to the world. The last Adam came and now according to 2nd Corinthians 5:19, God no longer “imputes” sin to the world. If God is no longer imputing sin unto the world then what sin will you expect in the next life imputed to you from this life?
Could God have forgiven Hitler? It would be religious of you to say, "No." Would God be unjust to simply forgive Hitler on the merits of Christ? It would be an attack on Jesus Himself if you were to say no. Would God violate Hitler's freewill? Death passed down was not part of anyone's freewill so to say that life must be by freewill only is silly. To say that God would not allow a person kicking and screaming against entering heaven but would allow a person to keep kicking and screaming to get out of hell is a lame argument that I hear often.
If Hitler right now has beheld God's love and forgiveness then only a religious heart can get mad at that. If you are mad or disgusted by such a thought then maybe it is you kicking and screaming against this heaven. All I know is Hitler is not kicking and screaming in agony as God is not crueler than Hitler was when alive.
Below are good articles to read:
https://supernaturalgospel.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/the-violent-god-of-the-old-testament/
https://supernaturalgospel.wordpress.com/2014/08/18/what-the-heaven-is-hell/